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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeremy Corbyn has a new enemy - Mumsnet

280 replies

busyboysmum · 12/02/2018 11:40

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/jeremy-corbyn-has-a-new-enemy-mumsnet/

I’ve learned that there are some brilliant, learned and compassionate people out there, who come at this from all angles. One (purely anecdotal) observation is that the diversity of opinions within the trans-gender population is not remotely reflected in the bit of this conversation most visible at Westminster. The trans community’s opinions are not as homogenous as some reporting and discussion suggest. So here’s a tip for hacks covering this: don’t just book Paris Lees or talk about Lilly Madigan. Ask Kristina Harrison what she thinks. Or Tara Hewitt. Or lots of other people. The same goes for the ‘radical’ feminist side of this: there’s more to it than Germaine Greer. (Though for some media outlets that really should know better, having any voice from that side of the conversation at all would be an improvement.)

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/02/2018 12:15

Great article James!

VanGoghsLeftEar · 12/02/2018 12:15

My mum is in the WI. I've texted her for an answer on self ID.

SleepFreeZone · 12/02/2018 12:15

God could you imagine the uproar if you could self ID as another ethnicity as a PP said? Fucking hell it would be a blood bath.

TerfyMcTerface · 12/02/2018 12:17

Hasn't the WI said it welcomes self-identifying women?

Datun · 12/02/2018 12:19

I remember this time last year when sexually explicit valentines' cards were being sold in Paperchase.

A thread started on here with outraged women voicing their disgust.

During the course of the thread, but after an initial pushback, paperchase removed all the offending materials from the shops.

Because "We thank our customers for telling us what they think and appreciate their directness and honesty."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2837849-To-think-Paperchase-have-lost-their-minds-over-cock-and-anal-cards

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/living/2709324/paperchase-slammed-for-vile-valentines-cards-with-messages-about-anal-sex-and-body-parts/amp/

12 million unique users, Jeremy.

12 MILLION.

Listen to your electorate.

busyboysmum · 12/02/2018 12:21

The power of mumsnet indeed. Listen to women - we have the best interests of everyone at heart.

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/02/2018 12:22

Yes. The WI has sold out. From one FAQ

"5. I’m a trans woman, can I still join?

If you gender-identify as a woman you can join us and expect our full support. Members who cannot tolerate being part of a group that accepts all women are free to leave. We have yet to come across any such members!"

Terftastic · 12/02/2018 12:22

I'm loving James Kirkup - it's a brave man that writes about this, and really gets it. And for a journalist to be nice about Mumsnetters?? What has happened? Grin

Great to see - unlike Ralf Little and the Maugham bloke who instantly allowed themselves to be bullied into submission.

Terftastic · 12/02/2018 12:23

Yes. The WI has sold out.

Men in the WI. Bloody hell, we are in trouble.

Justanewname · 12/02/2018 12:25

Just on the topic of self identification, it appears that it’s the way the Labour Party is going in general and not just for gender. There’s been some furore over the exclusion of straight, white, non disabled men from a young labour equality conference but I think it’s much more interesting that the conference is advertised as for people who self identify as disabled, BAME, LGBT or women. www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-faces-backlash-for-telling-straight-white-men-they-cannot-attend-equality-conference-a3763876.html

AngryAttackKittens · 12/02/2018 12:25

And out of those 12 million unique users how many people are there who're being influenced by those users but who don't post here themselves? We all have a network of friends and family who we talk to about things that are important to us. How many people does that represent?

SleepIsForTheWeek · 12/02/2018 12:25

If you gender-identify as a woman you can join us and expect our full support. Members who cannot tolerate being part of a group that accepts all women are free to leave. We have yet to come across any such members!

So women have to leave the WI if men join? Madness.

IHATEPeppaPig · 12/02/2018 12:26

It's such a shame as I love Jeremy and voted for him as leader but I will not vote for labour until they stop the barmy self ID and gender politics that is a current theme.

NameChanger22 · 12/02/2018 12:26

I don't like him because of brexit. I used to vote Labour, now I vote Lib Dems.

TerfyMcTerface · 12/02/2018 12:27

Men aren't interested in the WI. Middle-aged women and baking? No. The self-identifying brigade and their fetishes have other places in mind.

RosieBrock · 12/02/2018 12:27

It is not Jeremy being quiet it is the mainstream media shutting him down. And why? Because of his policies. His speech last week was brilliant. It is his policies on housing, the NHS and rail and utility nationalisation that are what we need.

StillTryingHard · 12/02/2018 12:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TerfyMcTerface · 12/02/2018 12:29

I'd love to know who the prickly-Parliamentarian mentioned by Kirkup is. Shame he didn't let us know. Almost certainly Labour, probably someone like Clive Lewis.

Everyonematters · 12/02/2018 12:29

ReluctantCamper I really think you should bring it up with the WI - now is the time. It's now or never. Talk them through the implications, get them asking the questions.

  1. Self-ID means any man can say he's a woman.
  1. The definition of trans is hugely wide, it's no longer seen as most WI members probably imagine it - as people who have such a strong and upsetting desire to be a woman (or man if vice versa) they will go through a terrible op to do this.
  1. The way many young people in particular see gender is hugely different to the way most WI will see it. Many believe that it is fluid, that you say you are a woman you are a woman, penis or not. For example young labour name badges for their conference included preferred pronouns. People like Danielle Muscato say they are trans www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2876810-Danielle-Muscatos-tweet-on-international-womens-day
  1. The current GRC was agreed with a hugely high bar (surgery or drs certificate of confirmation) so that people who had gender dysphoria or surgery could be legally recognised as the opposite sex for some specific reasons including marriage rights which no longer apply now same sex marriage is legal. It's worked on trust, that high bar and small numbers so far.
  1. There are good reasons why we have laws and protections around biological women's rights specifically - both safety and equality measures. Setting law that effectively renders this meaningless has huge implications for women and society, and would be very hard to come back from
  1. How has the conversation come from let's make the GRA better for people who see themselves as trans, and try and support their rights and tackle disadvantage and discrimination they face because of it - to a demand for self-ID and a climate of fear around asking questions about this?
ReluctantCamper · 12/02/2018 12:30

Do you know what, I've got no problem with old school trans sexuals joining the WI. I used to work with a trans sexual woman who would have fitted right in. As long as they come along, enjoy the incredibly tedious talks and make bunting like the rest of us they can knock themselves out. I would expect most members would be in full agreement on that.

However, I think membership of a social group is quite different to not being able to ensure that your smear test is done by a natal woman. I'd like to see the WI clarify their position on that.

Any way, I'm aware that this is not what this thread is about!

SmurfOrTerf · 12/02/2018 12:31

But he's still chucking ALL women under the bus.

RosieBrock · 12/02/2018 12:31

Frankly, single issues such as gender ID is a miniscule problem in comparison to what we should really be focussing on- housing for our children for example, affordable rents, and better paid jobs for them. No more zero hours contracts, no more £billions laundered by crooks through the London housing market......and the NHS properly staffed, and schools properly staffed and fewer managers who pay themselves more from school budgets because they don't know how to teach!

TerfsUp · 12/02/2018 12:31

I wonder if WI are aware of transideology and transactivists.

TerfyMcTerface · 12/02/2018 12:31

It is not Jeremy being quiet it is the mainstream media shutting him down.

Corbyn has been invited to come on here to discuss his views on self-ID and what it means for women. He is clearly not interested in doing so, even though - when pushed - he said he welcomed discussing the issue with women. He clearly doesn't, because all we have heard from him so far is that men can be women if they say they are. No debate.

Hygge · 12/02/2018 12:32

I tried to post a long reply on the Are You A Feminist Yes Or No thread, and it closed before I could post it.

But this bit here is relevant to this thread so I'll post it here.
Then lets look at all women short lists for things like employment or politics.

Somewhere on here is a comment along the lines of "it should be the best person for the job, even if that person is a man not a woman."

That sounds fine, until you look at those photo's of Donald Trump and his all male meeting in the White House, deciding the fate of women's healthcare and all the things that go with it.

Do we really believe that that room full of men are "the best people" to decide what happens to women when it comes to our health?

That there's not even one women in America who can match them in terms of education and political experience?

And that even if there isn't a woman who can match them in terms of education and political experience, there's not anything about being a woman that might make women better placed to talk about what they want and need in terms of healthcare?

Not one man in that room has ever given birth or had a period or needed treatment for an illness or ailment that mostly or only affects women, or had to lie about needed contraception because of bad period cramps rather than for birth control, or had a termination.

Yet apparently they're still somehow 'more qualified' than any women who has ever done any of those things, to make decisions in women's best interests. Really?

Because we know that Women's healthcare (and that includes contraception and access to on demand terminations) is about more than our health. It's about our safety, our economic stability, our right to choose when and how we have sex, and who with, and how often. It's about our families, the children we have, the jobs we do, the places we live. It's about our right to represent ourselves.

And that's just as important when it comes to women as it is for people of colour, people who have disabilities, any group of people who are not self-represented but should be.

Women have been kept out of politics, denied the vote, and told that men know better for years. That's why we have and need all women short lists or 'positive' discrimination now. Because historically we've been excluded and we are still, as the Trump photo proves, being excluded now.

In 1917 a woman called Margaret Sanger was put on trial for advocating birth control in America. She was told by the judge that "no woman has the right to copulate with a feeling of security that there will be no conception; if a woman isn't willing to die in childbirth she shouldn't have sex."

That still seems to be an opinion held by too many people in power in the USA right now. Do you know when rape in marriage finally became a crime in all the states? 1993. So women in 1917 had no right to refuse sex if they were married but didn't want to die in childbirth. It's still relevant now, because women are being denied contraception or insurance by men in power. Employers can decide for their employees if they can have birth control or not on their insurance.

Look up what Ruth Bader Ginsburg has to say about women making reproductive choices for themselves rather than have the government do it for her.

As the government will be involved to some extent, we need to ensure that woman have roles in that government that allow them to speak for themselves and from experience a man will never have had.

So when Labour are opening up all women short lists to men, that's a problem for me too. Women are again being silenced, because someone else's 'feelings' are somehow more important than everything women experience as women. And again, I don't believe saying so makes me transphobic, it's just a convenient way of saying shut up to women.

If feeling angry about any of this, if feeling like women are being overlooked and excluded once again, if thinking that my body does actually make me more of a woman than someone else's make up or outfit or feelings, also makes me a transphobic TERF, then okay. But it really doesn't.