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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you all just lay off trans people

742 replies

cjferg · 10/02/2018 17:11

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

drops mic

OP posts:
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CAAKE · 10/02/2018 19:59

I did warn you itsall ⚠️

The first result I got just now is a user called Alethia Dreams posting pictures of her morning boner. Twitter's community standards are truly completely trans inclusive Confused

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/02/2018 20:04

Mose
Thank you for all your posts. I’m really happy to see someone in the profession, who is thinking rather than just doing. You have given some really inciteful information.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 10/02/2018 20:04

As an aside, something else that annoys me about the mefical profession is this. If a 20 year old woman requests a sterilisation she will not get one, on the basis she may change her mind about wanting children. Yet we are happy to remove the uterus of a 20 yr old because she thinks she's a man. She may also change her mind. What are we doing? I despair

Yes, I am 30 and have been denied this as I may change my mind. Without going into too many personal details here, I cannot afford another child, neither in money nor energy as I have became physically disabled, and my husband cannot work because of my disability as I need him here all of the time. It has been confirmed that my illness will never go away, and if any changes happened it would be for the worst. So yeah, no way will I change my mind. But I am denied this.

But children, as young as 10, can decide they want to be sterylised? Its madness, who seriously ever thought about possibly wanting children at 10? A 10 year old cannot consent to this kind of treatment as they cannot possibly fully understand the implications. And their parents should not be able to consent to this either. It should not be offered as a treatment, it should be intensive therapy, then when the brain is fully mature, if the patient still wants to transition, crack on.

MoseShrute · 10/02/2018 20:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MaidOfStars · 10/02/2018 20:10

I’ve never wanted children. Never.

No chance of sterilisation here.

Ketkins · 10/02/2018 20:14

30 trillion cells in our bodies as women contain XX chromosomes. It's not about which bits work and which bits don't, which bits have been removed etc.

HairyBallTheorem · 10/02/2018 20:23

DN4 nothing to add to your post other than Flowers

Valentinesfart · 10/02/2018 20:25

That was so cringey I'm a bit concerned that it's a troll trying to be a down with the kids teenager.

I don't think anyone under 30 say mic drop....

IfNot · 10/02/2018 20:28

Does it matter? Can you only identify as a woman if you have period pains and have suffered sore tits? If so, there must be an awful lot of women who are feeling pretty damn confused.
No. I don't think women are confused. They know they are women they don't "indentify" as such . I couldn't identify myself out of being sexually harrassed at 12, and I can't identity myself out of perimenopause.
It's pretty straightforward

DN4GeekinDerby · 10/02/2018 20:30

Thank you for all the kind comments Smile Blush

Frequency Your daughter might like dance/gymnastic tops. They don't compress but tend to hold better and more evenly than sports bras and I know others who have a lot of discomfort about their breasts - and men's comments on them - that find them helpful (I tend to just wear lots of layers, anything snug on my chest makes my dysphoria worse, so I don't have personal experience on them).

LangCleg Very much in support of single-sex spaces, they've been a major blessing to me. I find many of the people who call women TERFs pretty much do not think or consider female dysphoric people as worthy of attention unless we are with our male counterparts. I will happily take TERFs over the people who like to fill my inbox with how I'm not using language or identifying to their satisfaction every time (and even at my most annoying/stubbornly not seeing this crap, I have never been inboxed or threatened by any TERFs).

MoseShrute I find your writing on this interesting. Adults first heard me talking about a sex change when I was 7 and from 11 I was in and out of therapies and didn't attempt to transition the first time until well into my teens. It was the slow watchful waiting and...it feels like an entirely different world. The last few years have felt like continuous eye opening to just how much has changed, I don't recognize so much anymore. It's nice to hear from a professional.

larry The World Health Organization, who has done a lot for the health of trans and other dysphoric people, defines gender as "socially constructed characteristics". I found their writings on it was very well referenced.

IfNot · 10/02/2018 20:30

Oh, and I have nothing but love for actual body dysmorphic transsexuals. They are not the problem.

InfiniteCurve · 10/02/2018 20:36

How would you show that gendered behaviour is innate,given that there is evidence that boy and girl babies are treated differently from birth?

YourVagesty · 10/02/2018 20:37

**

Are you 12?

UpstartCrow · 10/02/2018 20:40

OP, you will look back on this one day and cringe.

larrygrylls · 10/02/2018 20:44

Infinite,

'How would you show that gendered behaviour is innate,given that there is evidence that boy and girl babies are treated differently from birth?'

It is impossible to prove. However, people have done studies on new born babies and higher primates, which show evidence in that direction. They have been disputed but so have the studies in favour of the argument that gender is a social construct. There is no such thing as a perfect study in this area.

But, equally, the idea that gendered behaviour is purely a social construct is far from proven, but it is trotted out here as if it were a self evident truth.

There is an ongoing study to sample the DNA of transsexuals and compare it with non transsexuals to see if there are any differences.

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-biology/born-this-way-researchers-explore-the-science-of-gender-identity-idUSKBN1AJ0F0

It strikes me that the scientists doing the study are not all innately stupider than those who keep posting on this board 'gender is a social construct'. They clearly feel it is worth looking at.

MoseShrute · 10/02/2018 20:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OvaHere · 10/02/2018 20:51

Mose

It's really interesting to hear your perspective. Some of us have been discussing just that on this thread below. It would be great if you could add some of your thoughts there also.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3163922-is-it-time-to-repeal-the-gender-recognition-act

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 10/02/2018 20:59

But gender changes accoring to culture, and time. So I don't understand how it could possibly be innate? Sorry if I am missing something here. I cannot see gender as anything but taught behaviour. I see no reason why girls would be attracted to pink and pretty things or whatever nonsense.

The only things that would be innate is stuff like..men are better for work involving strength/speed. Because..biology. But even then, there have been times in different cultures where its actually the women who go out and hunt where the men stay home with the kids and stuff.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 10/02/2018 21:00

Obviously my statement about strength was meaning, as a class. I know some women are sronger than some men, and such. Just incase thats read wrong.

Terftastic · 10/02/2018 21:02

Larry's going on about primates again - he must be right. After all, there is no quantifiable difference between primate behaviour and human society.

Larry - do you deny that women that women's reproductive biology determines how they have been and are treated in society. Try not to talk about primates - let's stick to humans when we're discussing women.

RatRolyPoly · 10/02/2018 21:04

thegoals I believe the idea is one of "signalling*. So a culture has an external construct which represents a particular gender, and that each individual has an innate gender. There are many reproductive and sociological reasons why people would befit from "signalling" their innate gender, or indeed why they would not. Apparently it can be like a feedback loop; when people feedback their self-expression into the social construct it helps shape and change it, and as it changes that changes what people do to "signal" their allegiances within society.

All theory of course.

larrygrylls · 10/02/2018 21:07

Terf,

I am not going to be drawn into an oversimplified yes/no debate into a complex area.

Many Scientists (both male and female) feel the idea of a biological basis for gendered behaviour in human beings is worth investigating.

You clearly believe they are all idiots. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine.

Juzza12 · 10/02/2018 21:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Weezol · 10/02/2018 21:09

Looks like Mike pulled the Saturday night shift again at TRA HQ. Mike, has your imaginary trans friend stopped crying yet?

BarrackerBarmer · 10/02/2018 21:11

"They clearly feel it is worth looking at."

Yes, never underestimate the extreme lengths people will go to to try to evidence their theories, rather than DISPROVE them, which is what we ought to be doing.

Even if, across a population we were able to find slight variations of behaviour, AND somehow demonstrate that these were innate and not learned, these would a. not be binary (like sex) and b. would mean about as much as suggesting that short men are like women and tall women are like men, because look, we found a characteristic with a slight variance between the two groups!

Baffling that people are prepared to argue that corpus callosum thickness might be hugely meaningful, but having a dick isn't.

And if we were to separate humans into groups based on whatever fun criteria (affinity with dolls in childhood? brain circumference? parallel parking ability?) is currently flavour of the month I'm certain that the advocates for revering this new, true gender difference would be quite reluctant to take their findings towards any logical conclusion.

Mind, what would I know. I'm just someone posting on a board that gender is a construct, not like those super clever scientisty people.

(who say gender is a construct. Read Cordelia Fine and Gina Rippon)

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