Can you all just lay off trans people

[cjferg]

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

drops mic

Larry - No of course you won't be drawn on that. I've read years worth of your posts on here - telling women they're wrong, talking about Gorillas and evo-psych crap.

Maybe, Larry, think about why women do not want "sex" to be replaced by "gender" when it comes to legislation - because sex is scientifically quantifiable - whereas gender is not. Although, as a PP said, the WHO have a good take on it.

Oh I remember a primate gender study!

Wasn't that was the one where they saw that the female monkeys played more with the frying pan, instead of the ball, and so they quite rightly deduced that there was an innate female gender "I'm biologically destined to create warmed up cuisine" identity in female marmosets?

Yes that was very compelling.

Terf,

FWIW, I am totally with the protection of female safe spaces and being very careful about allowing people to self identify.

Equally I don’t think trans people should ever be allowed to compete in women’s sport.

I also think a lot of the trans trend is mass hysteria.

However that does not mean overly simplistic arguments and mocking of all trans people will serve anyone well.

Women have only X chromosomes.

That’s a biological fact.

It’s not discrimination.

Nobody mocks all trans people on here, Larry. How dare you suggest that?

That's a typical argument used against women, again, who just want to protect legislation protecting them due to their biological sex.

Yes Mike I've been worrying all week about your 'friend' and his imaginary tears.
Just fuck off. Your friend is a bloke. Always has been, always will be. Deal with it and ffs stop with this bollocks that transwomen are women. They're not. In the same way that if I draw on a moustache and wear trousers it doesn't make me a man and give me rights to use the men's toilets, changing rooms etc. I would be making myself vulnerable if I did this in ways you can't begin to imagine.
So again, fuck right off.

I really hope this whole idea that you can chose your gender will have blown over by the time my children are old enough to have a sexual preference (and I do not have an opinion on what their sexual preference is).
You cannot choose your gender (or should not be able to) just as you cannot chose your race or age as it's biologically determined, nor should you be compelled to feel or behave a certain way because of it.

It strikes me that the scientists doing the study are not all innately stupider than those who keep posting on this board 'gender is a social construct'. They clearly feel it is worth looking at.

We're not saying that scientists doing that research are stupid

Scientists like to probe issues that lack definitive research and / or that are "of the moment". they like testing theories by taking them apart and seeing how they go back together. They like looking at issues from a different angle to see what they might find - often it's not the answer that they thought they were looking for but something else that's interesting or useful in a different context.

So of course scientists right now are researching gender (and lady brains and so on). I suspect that there is a lot more money available to fund this than in the past too. But it doesn't mean that they will find "proof" that gender is innate.

And personally I don't see how they can find this: think of how pink used to be for boys and blue for girls (this only changed in the last 60 years or so). Or how all children wore dresses until they were about 7 years old (what significance would unpoppering a babygro have when both boys and girls wear dresses, other than babies fiddling like babies do?). Or how in the US soccer is a girls' sport, but in the UK it's for boys?

Just me, or is larrygrylls appearing to enjoy abbreviating terftastic to 'terf' just a little too much?

AH - Barrack you are probably right. I namechange often - but whichever name I'm under, LarryGrylls is on the Feminism section, telling women they're wrong. And it often has something to do with gorillas.

Terf - in the case of my username stands for "Telling Everyone Real Truth" - so it's not a problem

Haha - sorry real Facts not truths. Having a funny 5 minutes.

Excellent post DN4!

@MoseShrute Have you seen any info about Dr Kenneth Zucker, who was fired in Canada? I think his ideas were close to what you were describing. I'll try and add a link here:

www.thecut.com/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html

Just another goady post telling women to STFU, with dozens of women defending their right to have an opinion on their own lives. Breaks my heart.

Olenna,

I do not know the answer as to what extent gender is innate or socialised. But nor do the people on this thread who repeat the mantra 'gender is a social construct'.

It is worth investigating, as you rightly said. I will be interested in the 'answer', if they find it in my lifetime. I am not sure there is a lot of funding to research it (apparently the large cohort genetic study is still awaiting further funding) as, whatever the outcome, someone is going to get offended. If there is a genetic cause found, 'trans' becomes 'treatable' with all the moral baggage that brings. If not, the trans community will be found to be the emperor's new clothes, again hugely offensive to a section of society.

Pink and blue is clearly a silly example (my boys were made to wear many a pink item when it was cheaper and my oldest is now rather partial to it). As is a particular sport. I totally agree that this is just socialisation. Risk taking, modes of play and social interactions, on the other hand, are more interesting and worthy of study.

The case for transgirls liking pink is not that pink is a fundamentally female colour but that they feel, in some way, female and choose to signal that by adapting behaviours that are typically female.

Barracker,

That is plain silly. It did not even occur to me that terf was any different to terftastic, it was a simple abbreviation.

That'll do, Juzza.

Larry - I'll repeat - biological sex is scientifically quantifiable and verifiable. Gender is not. And we are currently protected in law from discrimination due to sex.

Can you explain why you are arguing with women on this thread when they do not 'biological sex' to be replaced with 'gender' in law?

Terf,

Your last post does not make sense.

I am against replacing sex with gender in law.

Then why are you arguing about primate studies, Larry?

All we TERFS want is to preserve is sex discrimination law, women's private spaces and so on, to be on the basis of biological sex - not self declared gender.

Baffling that people are prepared to argue that corpus callosum thickness might be hugely meaningful, but having a dick isn't.

Just like when Evan Urquhart, in his article for Slate, states that breasts are just "a bit of extra tissue".

I posted this on a different thread but want to post it here too...

As the goalposts keep being changed regarding what is a woman, this is opening up women's spaces to, well actually, EVERYONE!

So if TIMs want to define themselves as women, then spaces should be divided based on chromosomes, it seems to be the only fair way. Chromosomes can not be altered and are therefore a biological way to create a division. The choices for sports/changing rooms/prisons/hospital wards/refuges/spas, etc would be based on XX or XY, where anyone who didn't wish to go with their chromosomes would have an alternate third space.

I don't feel like many of the messages I read on here are just ranting about trans women.
They're usually expressing concern about the behaviour of some trans activists and the erosion of women's rights.
The posts are often preceded with a statement on how they have no issue with trans people who are getting on living their lives, their issues are with the people who seem to have scared others into believing that it is wrong to criticise anything a trans person says as you're then obviously a transphobe.
They seem to have problems with being told that they are "cis" and as such are not allowed to talk about women's issues because they do not understand the transwomans experience and therefore have nothing worth saying.
They're angry that anything to do with female biology can no longer be discussed as it is triggering to trans women. (As an aside to this, I was in a public toilet today and made use of their hygiene bins, how long til they have to be removed because they upset trans people who have no use for sanpro?)
They're furious that a political party are so hellbent on being viewed as progressive and liberal, that they believed someone with 6 months experience of "being" a woman was qualified to become Woman's Officer, the same someone who thinks it's okay to lead hate campaigns against other women and is likely part of a group who've created a sinister list of women who disagree with their views and aims.
They're outraged by plans to allow Self-Id, as they recognise that it will be abused by men in order to gain access to vulnerable children and women.
They're angry that women's sport is becoming increasingly hard for women to succeed in due to competitors who were previously above average men but as women are outstanding.
They're disgusted by the assaults, threats, bullying and harassment that is taking place. The language used about "erasing" us and other such delights.
I can't be bothered to go on about the focus on an attractive appearance, paedophile and abuse jokes, lady penises, the cotton ceiling and so much other shit that is often linked to these threads.
You can fuck off with your dropped mic, trans people deserve equal rights they don't deserve to take my rights.

Pink and blue is clearly a silly example (my boys were made to wear many a pink item when it was cheaper and my oldest is now rather partial to it). As is a particular sport. I totally agree that this is just socialisation. Risk taking, modes of play and social interactions, on the other hand, are more interesting and worthy of study.

The case for transgirls liking pink is not that pink is a fundamentally female colour but that they feel, in some way, female and choose to signal that by adapting behaviours that are typically female.

I agree with some of this: it would be interesting to understand different behaviours, particularly the extent to which hormones like testosterone affect decision-making and impulse control, for example.

The issue with pink (and football / soccer) for me is that it is the other way around to your theory: there is a consistent narrative with TIMs that goes "I knew from a young age that I was actually a girl because I liked pink things / playing with dolls / playing soccer." NOT "I play soccer because it affirms that I am a girl" or "wearing pink makes me happy because it signifies to the world that I am a girl"