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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you all just lay off trans people

742 replies

cjferg · 10/02/2018 17:11

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

drops mic

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Onlynever · 17/02/2018 14:09

What do people think about NHS resources being used on hormone treatment, etc? Shouldn't there be a serious medical condition (eg diagnosed gender dysphoria) before these things are provided for free, time taken up by medical staff, etc? The NHS is so desperate for money - surely it shouldn't be funding lifestyle choices?

vesuvia · 17/02/2018 15:38

OP wrote - "I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way."

A female person who claims to have no gender is treated differently to a male person who claims to have no gender. Therefore, even these allegedly agender people are actually gendered, because gender is something that society does to a person, not something a person does to society.

How your friend looks (or behaves or identifies or feels) does not change the extremely high probability (more than 99%) that your friend is either male or female. The other 1% are intersex not agender.

GnotherGnu · 17/02/2018 17:24

Can anyone explain why we never see anything approaching the same level of passion around here in relation to the danger to people in prison arising from being banged up with violent people of their own sex?

Lovesagin · 17/02/2018 17:29

Probably because that's fuck all to do with eroding the rights and protections of the opposite sex, which is quite a big thing Gnu

BitFuckedOffNow · 17/02/2018 18:12

Can anyone explain why we never see anything approaching the same level of passion around here in relation to the danger to people in prison arising from being banged up with violent people of their own sex?

And here, ladies and gentlemen, we can see the precise moment at which the argument shifts from NAMALT to 'But what about the men?!'

What's your point here, exactly? That because male on male violence is a problem, women should shut the fuck up and pick up some of the slack, despite being at a clear physical disadvantage? Is that what you're implying?

thatcoldfeeling · 17/02/2018 18:22

I didn't read Gnu's question like that but though it was about female on female violence in female prisons, which is a problem.

BitFuckedOffNow · 17/02/2018 18:37

I didn't read Gnu's question like that but though it was about female on female violence in female prisons, which is a problem.

That's certainly possible, although frankly, I'd be very very surprised if they were talking about women's prisons. Either way it's still irrelevant to the issue at hand, and trying to deflect a discussion by implying women are selfish cunts who should be concentrating on issue x instead is a common (and deeply disingenuous) tactic. That still applies either way.

AnotherQuoll · 17/02/2018 20:08

Because Gnu, it's a separate issue to this one..And it's one you're apparently not too involved with or you'd realise that some of us have already been campaigning for years to increase safety for prisoners and reduce violence in prisons.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 17/02/2018 20:44

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GnotherGnu · 17/02/2018 23:04

No need to welcome me, Certain, been around for years. And you may have been campaigning for years, AnotherQuoll, but it's noticeable that we don't see several threads a week on the topic as we do on trans issues; nor do we see anything approaching the same level of passion. It's an interesting reflection on priorities.

CapnHaddock · 17/02/2018 23:11

Female on female violence may be a problem in women's prisons Gnu. I can't see how adding men to the mix is going to help that.

What's your point exactly?

Italiangreyhound · 18/02/2018 01:15

It's not a punishment to men or males not to allow them to be around vulnerable women or women who are temporarily vulnerable.

vesuvia · 18/02/2018 01:50

GnotherGnu wrote - "It's noticeable that we don't see several threads a week on the topic as we do on trans issues; nor do we see anything approaching the same level of passion. It's an interesting reflection on priorities."

The "winner" of the fight between transgenderism (which reinforces gender role stereotypes and supports patriarchy) and gender-critical feminism will define what a woman is and what rights a woman will have. Gender-critical feminists prioritise women's rights. What do you prioritise?

Italiangreyhound · 18/02/2018 01:55

So true vesuvia.

DarthArts · 18/02/2018 02:00

The whole argument gets so damn circular it gives me brain ache.

  • I believe in equality and fairness for everyone

- Then you should accept that men who want to Self ID as women are women, because their feelings are important

  • I appreciate the struggle and prejudice many Trans people have encountered. Again, I believe in equality. However I know you can't change your sex however you choose to present your gender

^- But I feel like a woman therefore I am #nodebate and you a a TERF and Transphobe
^

  • Ok, I don't identify as a TERF or a Transphobe. I certainly don't "feel" like one. In fact my "authentic" self says I'm a pretty damn liberal female whose fucked off with a load of TRA's in lipstick telling me what it's like to be me. Why is my self identification less important than yours?

-You're experiences as a CIS female don't even begin to touch on the struggle towards womanhood that "REAL" trans women feel.^

-^ Ok so your idea of equality is to deny me my own sex and the legal protection that provides, because of what you feel......Hmm

And so on.......

^
^

AnotherQuoll · 18/02/2018 18:45

Probably, Gnu, because the problem of violence in prisons is more of a significant issue in male prisons.

Men bash and rape each other and exhibit the type of extreme violence that is rare in female prisons. In fact, one of the prisms with allowing male prisoners to identify themselves into female prisons is that facilities intended for women are simply not equipped to handle the level of strength and ultra violence that makes are capable of.

AnotherQuoll · 18/02/2018 18:46

Prisms? Problems.

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