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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you all just lay off trans people

742 replies

cjferg · 10/02/2018 17:11

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

drops mic

OP posts:
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NotTerfNorCis · 10/02/2018 19:27

Can you only identify as a woman if you have period pains and have suffered sore tits?

I identify as a woman because of a) biology and b) socialisation. If I'd been born in a male body I'd have no reason to identify as female, having a male body and socialisation.

Elendon · 10/02/2018 19:28

Thanks AF

My sentiments exactly.

I believe that trans women who want to live as a woman respect women's spaces, just as they want others to respect their spaces. That's my experience. With regard to MRAs and TRAs my experience, sadly within the Labour Party, means that they hate women getting special treatment, such as AWS - which usually go to shitty non winnable seats anyway. I have left the Labour Party for now, but did fund Jennifer James, and posted it on FB - a bit of a shit storm ensued, thankfully none of my close friends/family. They know me to be a radical feminist.

MaidOfStars · 10/02/2018 19:30

who said the nonsense above

It’s not periods. It’s having a fanny. It gets you killed in utero, if not that drowned in a bucket, if not that neglected to death, if not that uneducated to acquiescence, if not that raped to make a fucking point.

Fuck. Off.

chirpyburbycheapsheep · 10/02/2018 19:31

MoseShrute

Thank you for your clarification - it has allayed my fears for your patients and I am glad that you recognise it's routes in abuse etc.

Sorry if I came on a little strong - I have had very bad experiences with psychiatrists (I have an abuse history which was denied).

Identity formation is an incredibly complex area. Most people navigate it somehow, but for some, where things have gone wrong, it can lead to terrible pain.

I suppose I am afraid for those with gender dysphoria who are getting thrown under the bus by the TRA's aggressive and nasty tactics as well as the women whose rights are now at risk.

larrygrylls · 10/02/2018 19:32

‘Gender is a social construct’ is just as silly and axiomatic as the idea that all you need to do to be a woman is to say that you are one.

Both are very entrenched viewpoints and neither side is interested in actual evidence.

TerfsUp · 10/02/2018 19:33

Re: the original post: Blah blah woof woof. More of the same old same old.

hazeyjane · 10/02/2018 19:36

Oh jeez, I read your post, I took being patronised and swallowed it down, I formulated arguments in my brain, but...drops mic

Fuck off.

Terftastic · 10/02/2018 19:37

Oh I've missed Larry telling women what's what.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 10/02/2018 19:40

‘Gender is a social construct’ is just as silly and axiomatic as the idea that all you need to do to be a woman is to say that you are one.

What evidence is there that gender is NOT a social construct? I would be interested in seeing it. And would actually take it into account. Given gender stereotypes vary hugely across cultures and such, I cannot see how it could possibly not be a social construct tbh, but my mind is open.

OlennasWimple · 10/02/2018 19:41

Any evidence that you care to share to refute that gender is a social construct, larry?

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 10/02/2018 19:41

Someone posted this on another thread recently

snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/post/114684943185/social-construct-masterpost

Makes a lot of sense, no?

AnyFucker · 10/02/2018 19:43

Where have you been, larry ?

Your male viewpoint has been sorely missed (not)

Soubriquet · 10/02/2018 19:44
Can you all just lay off trans people
larrygrylls · 10/02/2018 19:44

Olennas,

I can link to plenty of research that shows that gendered behaviour is innate. None of it is incontrovertible, however. Equally, no research has proved, in any sense that gendered behaviour in human beings IS purely a social construct.

It is an ongoing debate and hard to get funding for, as, in either direction, people get upset.

MoseShrute · 10/02/2018 19:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker · 10/02/2018 19:45

Amen soubriquet

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/02/2018 19:46

MoseShrute
Thank you for the clarification. I thought you weren’t allowed to deny people treatment or refer children on to get hormones as that would be seen as transphobic. Are you saying you’re a gatekeeper then? If self identification happens, will that make your role defunct.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 10/02/2018 19:46

Don’t think the OP is coming back. What for, after all she/ he esucated us thickos - what’s more to say...

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/02/2018 19:46

Cross post. I see you’ve answered half of my question.

chirpyburbycheapsheep · 10/02/2018 19:47

MoseShrute

I think we agree on that Smile

Cistersaredoingitforthemselves · 10/02/2018 19:49

Drops mic is a bit like 'rant over'

Makes me a bit Hmm and then I give this Biscuit

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/02/2018 19:55

Hey OP, why don't you pop over to twitter and type #transgirls into the search facility

I really wish I hadn't done that. I'm so far past peak trans now that I am in orbit.

MoseShrute · 10/02/2018 19:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 10/02/2018 19:57

Chirpyburbycheap.....l think if you asked my patients they would say that they find me incredibly sympathetic and understanding. Maybe l should have been clearer in my post, gender dysphoria is not bollocks, but the truth is l rarely see people who have this. I see troubled teenaged girls, often who have been abused, who reject femininity as something that is unsafe or dangerous. I see troubled, often autistic boys, who struggle to see how they fit in to the box of traditional masculinity and then wrongly assume they are women. I also see straight men who have no body dysphoria whatsoever, who are very attached to their penises and who wish to trandition of fetishistic reasons. I treat them all with kindness and compassion, but l do still think the current trans arguements as put forward by the op are bollocks

Mose It's really good to see your posts. I haven't seen you posting here before but I've valued reading your perspective on this thread. You are essentially at the frontline of all this and it's really interesting to see you see very little actual gender dysphoria. I'm glad there are people like you who aren't just agreeing with people and pushing them down a route towards mutilation and sterilisation. I'll look out for what else you post.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 10/02/2018 19:58

Drops mic is a bit like 'rant over'

Or 'end of'. Said with a pout and a pose.