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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you all just lay off trans people

742 replies

cjferg · 10/02/2018 17:11

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

drops mic

OP posts:
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LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 10/02/2018 18:05

Bluntness the only abuse I can see is the downright lying gaslighting in the op.

When you say abuse, what you really mean is people asking questions, and trying to engage with the op, like the million fucking times before.

Debate IS NOT abuse.

Using my personal experiences of living as a woman with PCOS and GNC in their little rant....is fucking abusive.

They have no right to appropiate my life.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 18:08

lang

Grin

For a minute i thought it might be DD, but then i realised that she wouldn't do a post like that

(Plus her spelling is nearly as bad as min)

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 18:08

I agree with lana

Lovesagin · 10/02/2018 18:09

Hang on, are we only allowed to be concerned about things we have directly experienced ourselves now? Shit. Oh well at least I can cancel my wateraid donation considering I've never been to Africa.

BakedBeans47 · 10/02/2018 18:10

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

This, I really don’t get. So if someone claims not to have a gender, what’s wrong with using pronouns corresponding to the person’s biological sex? We do it not just with people who “identify as a particular gender” but also we refer to females of non human species as “she”, also human female babies who won’t identify as a “gender” yet.

terryleather · 10/02/2018 18:11

Yet another sanctimonious know-nothing coming on here to berate and lecture people who they appear to think have not considered any of their arguments and found them to be spurious shite.

To use the common parlance of our time educate yourself.

NauticalDisaster · 10/02/2018 18:13

TIMs are male, TIFs are female. Taking hormones, dressing in different clothes, and surgery will not change these facts. It may help ease the symptoms of gender dysphoria but changing sex is not possible.

The proposed changes with regards to self identification are dangerous to girls and women. No amount of gaslighting by TRAs and their allies will make me stop fighting against it.

Branleuse · 10/02/2018 18:13

Im fine with trans people and have respect for not conforming to stupid gender stereotypes. However I think that the system of having someone living fully as a woman for a certain amount of time and being evaluated BEFORE being able to access services or shortlists created for women was an adequate system and protected women somewhat from people who wish to abuse the system and harm women. I do not believe that you can just decide you feel like a woman and then able to go into a womans prison, or refuges despite being a sexual offendor against women and children, or before competing in womens sports.
I do believe in gender dysphoria and have compassion for people who feel they are not presenting as the gender they identify with. That doesnt mean I think that there needs to be nobody questioning this, and it does not make me a fucking bigot

Bluntness100 · 10/02/2018 18:14

For me calling someone an idiot, a fool, thick, a fucker, is abusive. Clearly some feel otherwise. Anyway I'm out. These threads are not for me, and it's because of the abuse whenever someone tries to present an opposing argument, that I don't get involved.

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/02/2018 18:15

@Bluntness100
Did you see my post? I’ll repost the attached here. This is the type of person people on here object to. I have no issue with gender dysphoria as described in the op. I really don’t understand your comment.

Can you all just lay off trans people
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 18:15

Someone said to me the other day 'it really depends how you define "change sex"'

Terftastic · 10/02/2018 18:18

Bluntness, you're hardly one to hold back on posting what you think. I've seen you being very direct on threads.

This is women's legal rights we are fighting for - women's rights in law for sex discrimination could be erased by the trans agenda. Calling someone a fool for not realising that is what we're fighting for is pretty mild IMO.

Also goady fucker - for someone who has the arrogance to end their post "drops mic" like they've delivered a speech like Obama is fucking goady.

Pythagonal · 10/02/2018 18:18

Could we please stop dropping the mic? I'm worried that the mic might get hurt, and it makes us all look micphobic.

Grin
LadyMcLadyCrisps · 10/02/2018 18:21

Bluntness, you have frequently
Offered your own very ‘robust’ responses on other threads, lets be honest. Never had you down as the fragile type! Confused

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 10/02/2018 18:22

Bluntness I'm sorry but the phrase from the op...
Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Totally deserved what I said, which was....
lso if you can't wrap your head around the reasons why women might not want penises in their safe spaces, you are very very fucking stupid.

Because its fucking true.

How ignorant must you be to not be able to see why women, having suffered so much abuse at the hands of men with penises, might not want to be forced to accept a penis in their space??

And as for the "women more likely to perv at kids than transwomen"
Considering that 98% of sexual offenders have a penis......that really is a fucking stupid, ignorant and downright offensive thing to say.

Why can't I call out stupid when that's what is being presented to me??

Why should I pretend that batshit nasty piece of lying propaganda deserves a polite answer??

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 18:22

pythagonal

Plus those things are really expensive

(Unless OP is using a toy one)

AnyFucker · 10/02/2018 18:23

Gotta laugh at bluntness suddenly turning into a fragile little flower

LadyMcLadyCrisps · 10/02/2018 18:24

Mic drop though OP, really? Hmm

Doesnt really support the idea that you are looking for an open and reasoned debate does it?

MoseShrute · 10/02/2018 18:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Oswin · 10/02/2018 18:25

You op are ridiculously wrong and offensive. You ask what has happened to us to nor want to share a space with a penis. Are you so fucking dense you can't work it out for your self. Or do you just not give a shit about women who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Seriously this post is not worthy of a mic drop. It's a pile of shite.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 10/02/2018 18:27

There is a difference between sex and gender.

Yes we know.

Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender.

Some people are female but prefer to present themselves in a stereotypical male way and likewise some people are male but feel more comfortable presenting as more feminine. However neither of these things means that they are really males/females stuck in a female/male body . It simply means that are feminine males or masculine females.

You don't actually seem to understand what gender is. Sex is biological but gender simply refers to the stereotypes, behaviours and traits that society expects of us as a result of whether we're male or female.

He was actually a male in a female body.

How does that work then?

Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better.

You mean when he started presenting himself in a more masculine way.

You cannot present yourself as a male because male refers to sex and has nothing to do with how you present yourself.

You cannot change your sex.

I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.

Why did being a girl mean you had to dress up? Why did your friend have to identify as male in order to wear a tux? Could they not have just been a girl who didn't want to dress up and wanted to wear a tux instead?

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender.

Nobody has a gender because gender is a social construct. Again, you don't seem to actually understand what gender is.

I reject gender as a concept because it is a load of made up damaging crap however I am still a woman because that is what my biology tells me I am.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen.

Because transwomen are the ones who are stamping their feet and throwing tantrums about being allowed in women's spaces. I literally cannot think of a single high profile transman but I can think of several high profile transwomen.

Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

First of all, please go look up what the word gender means because you're making yourself look daft.

Second of all, I don't want people with dicks sharing my female spaces because I have been both raped and sexually assaulted. HTH.

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room

If you're a pervy man and all you have to do in order to be allowed into the female changing room is fill in a form and/or say the words "I am a woman" then why wouldn't you jump at the chance? Genuine question btw.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

Well you're correct in the sense that your sex shouldn't stop you from being interested in whatever you want or wearing whatever you want, but someone with XY chromosome will always be a man and someone with XX chromosomes will always be a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.

A woman is simply someone with XX chromosomes. Nothing more and nothing less.

You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

No. It makes them women without uterus's.

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

It makes them infertile women.

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

A man is simply someone with XY chromosomes.

A man who can't grow facial hair is exactly that.

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman?

She is a woman with excessive facial hair as a result of polycystic ovary syndrome.

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Hmm

So let me get this straight; trans idealogy says that if a boy likes pink and dolls then he must be a girl rather than simply accepting him as a boy who likes pink and dols yet we're the ones who want to go backwards?

Righto then.

open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue

If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

BuckingFrolicks2 · 10/02/2018 18:29

It does bother me that we are not allowed to even discuss the fact that transwomen / men are not biologically female / male without being called a bigot.

Hear, hear. Trans has become a new religion, based on faith not science.

Trans issues trump every other issue going, it seems to me.

Eg. We know of a married couple divorcing because he's become a trans woman. Poor wife, say I and DO, what a terrible thing to have to deal with, how difficult that must be for the ex wife. But our DD, very pro trans, attacks us with "Where's our sympathy for the ex husband? It's worse for him/her".

Our DS on the other hand thinks the issue of trans is The Issue of 21st century and he bemoans the fact that "no one" is awake to the erosion of liberal values that the trans agenda is affecting.

DN4GeekinDerby · 10/02/2018 18:30

Please don't drop microphones without previous arrangement with those responsible for the sound equipment. Also, this is more a soapbox step down than a mic drop moment, mic drops are meant to be short speeches that catch people off guard...

I care because single-sex spaces saved my life. They didn't care how I identified. I believe they deserve legal protection. Women discussing the issues with current and proposed legislation is not "laying into" trans people. Some are here.

I'm a detransitioned person so, yes, I have and still have trans friends and see trans women in female spaces. The honour systems been there for decades as has the fight for single user unisex facilities. I think what is currently being by TRAs hiding behind dysphoric people like me is disgusting. People like me aren't going to be helped by these changes and dysphoric young people are being pushed into unhealthy practices.

Binders are one example. They want trans men to wear them while swimming which is the most fucked up advice I've ever heard - sure, let's tell young people to put wear something that restricts breathing while in the water. Binders can be worn safer than bandages but cannot be safe. Wearing them at all risks breathing issues, deformed ribs, damage to chest and back, and so much more. Many trans men have been unable to get top surgery because of the damage of doing it "safely". Been there, done that, and I will fucking start on it if I want because the damage it can cause is a lifetime of pain and no one should ever be told that binding is safe. You can't do proper risk management if you don't list out the risks. Closing our eyes and pretending this is all safe is doing fuck all to protect dysphoric people. I've said it dozens of time in these types of threads -- dysphoric people deserve better than this crap. That the very hormones my trans women friends are buying off the internet without any oversight are limited to a maximum of 5 years for natal women who need hormone therapy because of concerns of the damage it can cause in the long term...calling this stuff safe is bullshit and putting dysphoric lives at risk.

I remember when I came out, the first time, people usually say the same thing each time though. No one was surprised, I looked so much more relaxed, everyone can see I'm blah blah blah. Except...dysphoria is still there, I'd just found a new way to segment it to try to cope. The anxiety and body distress is still there. Yeah, my clothes were more comfortable but inside I was wreck because as a teen because pretty much everything I did was pushed as either proof for or against plus the anxiety of not passing with the well-documented violence against trans men and gender non-conforming women. Being told it was obvious actually hurt quite a lot - it was like being smacked with just how much I failed at trying to be good at something that felt like it should come naturally. The care I received in single-sex spaces from a wide range of women has been an essential part of my care and well-being and I will fight for them.

iamarealwomaaaaaan · 10/02/2018 18:36

Ah, I see the Mermaids plopping brigade has arrived.

(Helen are you ok hun???!)

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 18:36

not have just been a girl who didn't want to dress up and wanted to wear a tux instead?

I love a tux, wore a variation to last years Christmas do

And one of dds female friends is wearing a tux to prom

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