Can you all just lay off trans people

[cjferg]

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

drops mic

I suspect that Rat has the critical thinking ability and logic to examine her own assertions and see the logical flaws. But rat, I think you have a wilful blind spot which is stopping you from actually pursuing this.

Intellectual integrity demands that we each look at our own assertions and challenge them ourselves.

Some people don't even attempt to question whether what they are claiming is true or makes sense, they take an emotional "you must say this because it is nice, and it doesn't matter whether it is fact or fiction"

But that isn't you rat, at least I don't think so. You are articulate, willing to engage and respond and capable of retracting and changing your mind, all qualities which not enough posters display, and I respect you for that.

I wish you would fully commit to applying logic to your own claims. If you have complete confidence in them they will withstand introspection and critical thought.

Barracker that's probably the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me on the Feminism boards!

I think you have a wilful blind spot which is stopping you from actually pursuing this.

I will give this my full consideration.

I wish you would fully commit to applying logic to your own claims. If you have complete confidence in them they will withstand introspection and critical thought.

I'm on mat leave following baby number two and my brain aint what it used to be. After baby number one I couldn't even put my knickers on the right way round most days and things aren't getting better! But what has never let me down is having the courage of my convictions. I really appreciate your comments and I will take them on board.

, I don't really know how the whole system works as it is right now and for me I'd like to understand it. Perhaps there will be an informative thread on the subject soon.

You don't know how the prison system works?

Or only in relation to trans prisoners?

Because you could google the first, and there are already many threads about the second, on here.

Although I struggle with this because it sounds disingenuous to me.

You accused a site I posted of being biased and therefore unreliable.

Despite many posters saying that the Ministry of Justice confirmed their figures. Something, which again, you could still investigate online. Independently.

Not ask for a new thread to be started.

It's all really quite simple. Gender is a social construct. On the level of personality we are all non binary to some degree, no-one is 100% masculine or feminine, the idea isn't even possible. Gender id is just about how people's individual personalities reflect gender stereotypes, and as such, there are as many gender identities as there are people.

But gender isn't personality, gender is a hierarchical social system imposed on us based on our sex. That's what these stereotypes are rooted in, and how they function. So gender id tells us nothing useful at all about how gender works to oppress and privilege people.

Trans people can have their equality in law, their rights to live and love as they wish and have their protections like us all - all of which they already have incidentally. And no-one is against third spaces for trans people where sex segregation is necessary/it's a good idea, or indeed against specific services.

The only issue is that many trans people - and basically all trans activists - want to erase sex, because they want to be considered the exact same as those who are the opposite sex, and they base this on their anti-science bio essentialist idea that the brain is gendered, and they have the wrong body.

Not only does this unscientific idea of 'lady brain' entrench the very gender stereotypes that keep women subjugated under patriarchy, but further, this kind of conflation of gender id with sex, functions to remove sex as a protected characteristic, and part of what comes with that is an end to women and girls being able to organise around and address how structural sexism affects our lives, as well as have our safe spaces and indeed sex equality. And we need to be able to address ourselves as females, since we are oppressed for being so; we need to be able to have our equality monitored and addressed; we need safe spaces in order to participate.

Trans women mostly remain fully male bodied, and pose just as much a threat as any other male because of this. And not just this, but women and girls have a right to bodily consent, which means we have a right to not be forced to be naked/physically vulnerable around male bodies, just in order to be able to participate.

So no, trans people already have their rights, and they can campaign on making processes easier and for anything else they need as a group, but what they do not have the right to do is erase the difference between men and women, which comes at a great cost to women and girls. It's the misogyny and sexism of trans ideology and all that this means for women and girls - those are the issues women are addressing here. And Mumsnet women are doing an amazing job of challenging this. And we will continue until women and girls have our rights upheld.

Although I struggle with this because it sounds disingenuous to me.

Me too. I suppose it's possible that Rat is just the waffliest, most unable to ever make a clear statement person in the history of the internet, but I'm a suspicious person and the whole trying to nail jelly to the table aspect of the conversation gets vexing. Most people don't respond to being asked simple questions with weird rants implying that you're trying to trick them into something by asking.

Rat
" I'm still looking at prisons really, I don't really know how the whole system works as it is right now and for me I'd like to understand it."

Ok. So surely while you don't understand it, the sensible and safe option would be to not allow males into areas where females are vulnerable?

Datun, look, I'm not asking for a thread. I have a baby and a two year old. I have the workings of my own mind to satisfy before I feel comfortable in engaging with a discussion on a particular topic; might not make sense to you, makes sense to me. If I called a site biased it's because I believed it was. Perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn't, I will always retract when I believe I've been wrong.

And I never take the uncorroborated word of anyone about anything in life. I'm suspicious of anyone who does. Equally I don't have unlimited time and resources to corroborate every single word on every single subject myself overnight.

This particular thread stopped feeling productive when it started being all about me I'm afraid, but I'm sure this will all come up again.

you're right that it has become all about you rat

The nature of this debate is that it divides opinion.

but one of the characteristics is that the argument goes one of two ways.

Either people could you transphobic and never return.

Or they begin to perceive the issues, ask for more information and generally change their opinion.

It's quite rare to engage someone for this length of time, without reaching a consensus of some description.

But, I can't help feeling that your conviction is as solid as it was in the beginning. And I can't work out why.

Because the debate doesn't seem to move along, and evolve, due to input.

*Women are stating unequivocally that being forced to share spaces involving nudity with male people who believe themselves to be women is an unacceptable imposition.

And:

Are you willing to admit that the preferences of those women matter and that they have a right to say no to male people in those spaces?

Very well expressed summation of the issue. I will be swiping both of these questions to put to my MP. If he will come out from under the table.

I'd say I hope he's a bit less evasive than Rat is but, well, he is a politician.

Or they begin to perceive the issues, ask for more information and generally change their opinion.

I'm sure this happens, but equally there may be just as many who justifiably disagree and quietly slope off into the night. Because honestly, that would be easier.

It's quite rare to engage someone for this length of time, without reaching a consensus of some description.

There have been points of commonality between me and many posters on loads of different issues, just no unanimity. Which no-one would expect, surely?

But, I can't help feeling that your conviction is as solid as it was in the beginning. And I can't work out why.

My conviction, well it probably is; if you consider conviction as akin to "principles" in this context. Fundamentally I don't expect that to change, but the best ways to apply those principals in a practical sense; that's what changes. So the best way to approach the different aspects of the proposed reform of the GRA, that's the practical stuff, each individual little bit of it and it as a whole. That's what it is to me, anyway.

As for why, I couldn't really say. Except I do know that I used to be what I believe is called gender-critical, although more unthinkingly than with much passion, and I was going more and more that way. But I don't feel that way any more. I care very much about women's rights, but I don't have a converse objection to the idea of "gendered reality" (made that term up, hoping you get my gist). That's all. I'm not "gender critical" (in what I understand that to mean), but that doesn't mean I place gender rights above women's ideologically.

Because the debate doesn't seem to move along, and evolve, due to input.

Conversely I do think there has been evolution, but for me I've never seen debate as a vehicle for achieving conformity. I'm happy to walk away from it still with wildly different ideas from anybody else, but if they have been dampened, strengthened or changed even a little I can still think it has been a success. Don't you?

Sorry for the long post Datun

I have no problem with men who want to dress up as a woman and call himself Emma or Sharon.

I do have a problem however with men who want to use women or family changing rooms.

Do you've been lying when you said you believed the things other posters said about TRA?

They and others have corroborated those statements on numerous other threads on here with screenshots and links, and the kind of behaviors they refer to have been referenced in numerous articles I have read.

Would you like to try again? How about aiming for an even more innocuous phrase of mine? You might have better luck.

OK Rat, how about your assertion that homosexuality is just "feelings" and your dismissal of the prevalence of the Cotton Ceiling? Are you homophobic?

Um, I'm heterosexual myself but I know who I want to sleep with because of my, er, feelings. I could sleep with women but my "feelings" mean I would still be heterosexual. Not that that matters really because you took my comment out of context. And, hate to break it to you, I didn't dismiss the cotton ceiling. See upthread.

Keep going with that fine toothed comb.

Except I do know that I used to be what I believe is called gender-critical, although more unthinkingly than with much passion, and I was going more and more that way. But I don't feel that way any more. I care very much about women's rights, but I don't have a converse objection to the idea of "gendered reality" (made that term up, hoping you get my gist).

You started off gender critical, and have worked your way to 'transactivist positive'? I have never ever, in the history of this whole thing, when reading approx a few hundred trans threads with thousands and thousands of posts and speaking to many people in real life about this, seen anyone begin from gender critical and go the opposite way. I find it quite strange to be honest, and cannot really see how someone can go from GC to TRA positive. Congrats on being the first, I guess

See, I've read your whole post rat.

" I agree with some things, my principles won't change, the GRA needs looking at, debate doesn't have to achieve much, I used to be gentle critical, but now I'm not for some reason, now I am the other way, for some other reason.

And all that's great, isn't it?"

I don't want to be rude, and of course, you're entitled to post however you like. But it should come as no surprise that people find it frustrating and unproductive.

In 2012 there was a workshop at a LGBT+ event in toronto which was for TIMs only, entitled "Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women."

Lesbians were unhappy about this and so were lots of non lesbians who heard about it TBH.

The cotton ceiling is a thing that TIMs go on about. There is a preoccupation with sex, who will have sex with them, who won't, why the ones who won't are bad people, maybe some of them will relent if we go on and on and on at them etc. Interestigly, despite all the talk of being worried about more serious matters, it does so often seem to come back to sex, sexual access, especially to women, and most especially to lesbians. This is yet another "yeah you don't sound like a bloke at all "fail.

Meanwhile women and girls spend large amount of their time concerend with trying not to get fucked (raped / assaulted) and hoping generally that people won't try to have sex with them, because frankly men won't leave us alone when we're young a lot of the time.

The difference in priorities here is quite stark and very much along a male / female divide with TIMs behaving in standard male way.

Yeah, I use too many words Datun, fair cop.

But what is it you're trying to achieve exactly? What would make this productive for you? Because for me it's precisely the exchange of viewpoints and ideas that's productive, not some expected end-point.

Yes, I am struggling to see your position on this Rat.

Lots of words but no actual meaning

I've read loads of comments from TIMs who frame women saying no to sex with them as oppression.

This is clearly grotesque and not a little rapey. And very PUA / MRA in feel.