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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Disgusted by all the transphobia here

1000 replies

MikePeterson · 04/02/2018 16:12

A very good friend of mine and a long time poster here has spent most of her day crying because this fresh wave of transphobia in a community she thought she was welcome in has finally broken her spirits. After obtaining her permission, I am posting this because it needs to be said.

She is a woman with a penis and has identified as such since she was old enough to understand the concept of gender. Being female is part of her identity but so is her body, such as it is and untouched by surgery and artificial hormones. She is a beautiful individual and, to my eye, presents a much more feminine image than, ironically, Linda Bellos and several of her fellow bigots.

Arguing that, because of potential past trauma involving males, causing seeing a penis or even an individual likely to be in possession of a penis to be triggering is justification for segregation is as absurd as it is offensive. Would it be acceptable for a woman who was the victim of a violent crime commuted by a particular ethnic minority to demand that all members of that race be segregated in changing rooms and domestic violence shelters? Of course not.

Equally ludicrous is the claim that transgender women somehow had the privilege of living as a man. Cisgendered women are light years ahead of transgender women in terms of privilege and if you wish to continue denying this, you are no better than the most vile male misogynists.

Finally, think about how disrespectful you are being to all women, you are reducing all the wonderful differences between the genders to what someone has between their legs. The same feminist ancestors who fought for your right to vote, to be regarded as more than domestic servants and baby machines would spit on you for your intolerance.

OP posts:
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RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 21:48

Yes pidgeon of course you're right. Let's all be lampshades tonight.

AssassinatedBeauty · 08/02/2018 21:49

So it's a belief, rather than anything reasoned or logical. Which is fine, believe what you like. But, why does everyone else have to have the same beliefs you?

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 21:49

How pidgeon, how can anyone possibly show us?

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 21:51

They don't Assassinated. And yes it is belief, just like you believe something. That's not to say there's no logical or justifiable reason why one might feel that way.

PidgeonPodge · 08/02/2018 21:52

They can't show it to us. Because it isn't real, it doesn't exist, it has absolutely no basis in reality.

Fair enough if you want to believe the fairy is real. But to ask others to also believe in your fairy, especially if it involves them losing something, is a tad loopy, don't you think?

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 21:54

It's not my fairy, and I'm afraid I did say my position is not something I'm confident to articulate at this point. I was answering a specific question as to the prevailing views in my circle. And this is what they are.

Myunicornfliessideways · 08/02/2018 21:55

Every time someone says they don't believe in fairies, somewhere a fairy falls down dead.

That's basically the TRA argument about 'literal violence' right there. The whole transwomen are women thing is a basic chant of 'I DO believe in fairies! I do! I do!' It's an unfortunate metaphor since the whole thing is very Peter Pan in many ways.

I wholly believe that some people are immensely uncomfortable with their biological sex and body, and what they see as societal constraints on their gender. I have every sympathy for that. I wholly believe that some people truly do believe this means they are trapped in the wrong body.

I think there are social and psychological explanations for that. And I believe that the right to free expression comes with boundaries: your right to wave your arms around ends at someone else's nose.

WitchIwasaWitch18 · 08/02/2018 21:56

How pidgeon, how can anyone possibly show us?

Easy. Get one of those mirrors on a long stick that the military use to check cars entering the bases. Staff can then direct you to the correct changing room - if you have a penis you don't follow the vaginas.

Rat Who are these "we" you speak of? A cult? a gaggle of politicians or just some old blokes in a pub trying to wind up the wimmin folk?

OlennasWimple · 08/02/2018 21:57

Rat - I don't understand how you can believe in the immutability of biological sex and also believe that if a man says "I am a woman" then he must be correct and is a woman Confused

I think pretty much everyone on here accepts that there are some people who find that presenting themselves as the opposite sex alleviates significant problems that they have. Fine. Whatever. Can't get excited about it one way or the other, woolly liberal that I am.

It's the "person in a male body is actually, literally a woman" bit that we are struggling with. Why? How? What does that mean?

Butterymuffin · 08/02/2018 21:58

I think a very large part of feminism has always been to get rid of gender completely and just let everyone be themselves

This! 'Gender non conforming' is fatally flawed for me because it assumes that except for a small minority, people are drones who conform fully with a stereotype of masculinity or femininity. And anyone can see that's just not the case. Same goes for non binary (who is binary?) But somehow, weirdly, all the notions of gender being fluid and a spectrum have led to people being told they have a 'gender identity' which is defined through..what exactly? As far as I can see, through crappy primary school superficial likings for pink or blue, short or long hair, pirates or princesses. Which takes us back to the rigidity that apparently is the very opposite of these 'gender nonconforming' folk. The ridiculous circular logic of it all is unbelievable! Just let everyone look the way they want, wear what they want, and admit that 'gender identity' can only mean anything as a social, external process. I don't have a gender identity - it all comes from the social expectations of the world I live in.

PidgeonPodge · 08/02/2018 22:00

It's not my fairy, and I'm afraid I did say my position is not something I'm confident to articulate at this point

See, the unfortunate thing is, absolutely no one, no one, is confident enough to articulate the position you seem to be taking. Especially in a place where reasoned discussion can be had without threats of violence.

Isn't that strange? Absolutely no one can explain why they believe in fairies?

(Hang on, I'm getting confused with the metaphor - am I a fairy?)

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 22:00

Nothing so sexy as a cult i'm afraid, just your normal everyday folks. Olennas noone thinks a transwomen is a biological female (except idiot TRAs who don't know what they think). Anyway, bed, night folks.

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 22:01

I'll work on it for you Pidgeon, I'm not one for giving up.

AssassinatedBeauty · 08/02/2018 22:02

We are being forced to pretend we believe the same as you. Any dissent and you're a transphobic bigot.

PidgeonPodge · 08/02/2018 22:02

I'll be waiting to read it, thanks.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 08/02/2018 22:02

Let's all be lampshades tonight

... or sealions??

WitchIwasaWitch18 · 08/02/2018 22:04

You can self identify as a fairy if you want to pidgeon.

It's a tad more believable than a man with a penis being a woman just because he wants to.

BeachOrPool · 08/02/2018 22:08

May I ask what the posters who have the opposite views to the OP, this question -

If a transgender male is biologically a woman, but has a penis (not a proper penis but a penis still), should they be allowed into female changing rooms?

They are after all biologically a woman

LynetteScavo · 08/02/2018 22:09

A penis has no inherent gender,

Erm, except there aren't any female penises. Ever. The penis is the male genital organ. This is a fact.

Fairenuff · 08/02/2018 22:12

They are after all biologically a woman

Not according to their biological chromosones.

I can't help thinking that there is going to be some extremely violent reactions when "normal" people realise what is going on

There is no need for violence. Women already have the power. The shopping power. Just boycott any shops that allow males into female changing areas.

They will soon change their policies.

Money talks.

Fairenuff · 08/02/2018 22:14

Sorry that should be according to their biological chromosones

thebewilderness · 08/02/2018 22:17

I think Beach is asking about the trans identified females who have inflatable penile appendages surgically attached to their bodies.

CapnHaddock · 08/02/2018 22:18

If there was a woman who had enormous amounts of surgery so that she had a sad facsimile of a penis, she can go in the men's. I don't have a problem with a man who has had his penis lopped off in the women's changing room either. It's the penises I don't want around

WitchIwasaWitch18 · 08/02/2018 22:20

I think the violence will come from men towards those men calling themselves women. I don't say I agree with it but I do think there will be a reaction as more people realise the insidious ways this very small group are forcing change on the majority.

I totally agree with boycotting any shop foolish enough to pander to these bullies.

Myunicornfliessideways · 08/02/2018 22:20

Beach for the very many TIFs who haven't gone through the hell of 'bottom' surgery, no problem with them in changing rooms, they're biological women. I want intimate spaces separated by sex, not gender expression.

A TIF who has an artificially constructed penis is very, very unlikely to feel ok about stripping off in front of women and I'd feel strongly about their right to privacy. I don't have concerns about sexual offending from a TIF with an artificial penis in the way I do about any random biological male being able to waltz in and out of women's intimate spaces at will irrespective of his intentions, but no, penises don't belong in women's changing rooms. This is why third spaces should be available in all changing facilities and toilets that are separate enclosed and gender neutral cubicles.

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