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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Disgusted by all the transphobia here

1000 replies

MikePeterson · 04/02/2018 16:12

A very good friend of mine and a long time poster here has spent most of her day crying because this fresh wave of transphobia in a community she thought she was welcome in has finally broken her spirits. After obtaining her permission, I am posting this because it needs to be said.

She is a woman with a penis and has identified as such since she was old enough to understand the concept of gender. Being female is part of her identity but so is her body, such as it is and untouched by surgery and artificial hormones. She is a beautiful individual and, to my eye, presents a much more feminine image than, ironically, Linda Bellos and several of her fellow bigots.

Arguing that, because of potential past trauma involving males, causing seeing a penis or even an individual likely to be in possession of a penis to be triggering is justification for segregation is as absurd as it is offensive. Would it be acceptable for a woman who was the victim of a violent crime commuted by a particular ethnic minority to demand that all members of that race be segregated in changing rooms and domestic violence shelters? Of course not.

Equally ludicrous is the claim that transgender women somehow had the privilege of living as a man. Cisgendered women are light years ahead of transgender women in terms of privilege and if you wish to continue denying this, you are no better than the most vile male misogynists.

Finally, think about how disrespectful you are being to all women, you are reducing all the wonderful differences between the genders to what someone has between their legs. The same feminist ancestors who fought for your right to vote, to be regarded as more than domestic servants and baby machines would spit on you for your intolerance.

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bangkokhilton · 08/02/2018 21:02

I've not RTFT but after reading several pages I concur with the following:

  1. the "friend" with a penis is a man/transwoman & his feelings do not trump actual women's feelings, needs & rights

  2. stop telling us we are "CIS" and "privileged" - the more I hear this the more I fucking hate it

  3. there are more and more of us waking up -- hitting peaktrans & seeing this total mysogynistic bullshit for what it really is.

I am enraged by this post. I suspect that this is what Mike has in mind.

Here, this my first Biscuit

Italiangreyhound · 08/02/2018 21:04

@RatRolyPoly I am wondering about your 'normal' perspective, if you think you have one. I wonder if I can bring up women in this debate, young women and girls. Do you know that lots and lots and lots of young women and girls are so horrified by their normal female bodies that they are binding their breasts to try and form chests, they want to look like boys and may even think they are boys.

This is not normal.

Yes, a small number of girls may genuinely be trans and would grow up to want to transition fully, a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage. But every year the number increases exponentially.

All those girls whose lives and bodies are being blighted by the idea that they can opt out of being female.

I wonder what you really think of that?

SimonBridges · 08/02/2018 21:05

Most ‘normal’ people I know have a very live and let live attitude to transgender people.
Most of them are horrified when you tell them that potential anyone will be able to announce that they are a woman because they say so and access women’s safe spaces. Most people just don’t know about self ID.

Italiangreyhound · 08/02/2018 21:08

This is from 2016, does anyone know the figures for last year?

"Figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act reveal increases in the number of referrals to all of the UK’s 14 gender identity clinics (GICs) in recent years, with a number of clinics experiencing increases of several hundred percent.

At Charing Cross in London, the oldest and largest adult clinic, the number of referrals has almost quadrupled in 10 years, from 498 in 2006-07 to 1,892 in 2015-16."

It obviously can’t continue like that forever because we’d be treating everyone in the country, but there isn’t any sign of that levelling off,” said James Barrett, consultant psychiatrist at the Charing Cross clinic.

A clinic in Nottingham reported a 28-fold increase in referrals in eight years, from 30 in 2008 to 850 in 2015. It expected this to increase to more than 1,000 referrals during 2016."

-bold - mine
-this information obviously refers to males and females, although my comments above were specifically about females.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/10/transgender-clinic-waiting-times-patient-numbers-soar-gender-identity-services

Maryz · 08/02/2018 21:09

Rat believes that men should be allowed to compete in women's sporting events and allowed to work in women's refuges (among other things) as long as they think they are women. But since she hasn't come up with a definition of "woman" that will include women and men who think they are women - but will exclude men who don't think they are women but are happy to pretend to be women - the logical conclusion is that she's happy for any man to enter a women's competition or refuge or prison.

She seems to believe this is a feminist view, because it's supporting all women Hmm

These days "supporting all women" seems to mean "supporting trans women' rights while eroding women' rights". Apparently lots of people think like this, but are too afraid to come here and tell us why.

Italiangreyhound · 08/02/2018 21:11

@RatRolyPoly do you think anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman?

Does this follow for others things too?

If I identify as a brain surgeon can I operate on people's brains?

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 21:11

Rat What challenge to opinion was Jude making? It was just a ream of insults.

Yeah, it wasn't exactly refined. I saw it as a challenge to the tone of the argument rather than the content.

What challenge to the view you see as being espoused on MN would you like to make Rat?

I would like to make one - for my own selfish reasons I suppose - but I don't want to speak off the cuff on things I'm not articulate or well versed on.

Maryz · 08/02/2018 21:12

And what InionEile said, excellent post.

Italiangreyhound · 08/02/2018 21:13

I would actually like to understand how the view point that anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman works, can anyone explain it to me. This is a genuine question. And what happens if one who is identifying as a woman then chooses not to for a day, do they revert back to be being a man?

Maryz · 08/02/2018 21:16

Every time I see that type of reply (Rat's I mean) I want to yell Shit or get off the pot Grin

Imagine posting hundreds of posts on dozens on threads about an issue and not actually having an opinion. It must be exhausting, all that fence-balancing.

Italiangreyhound · 08/02/2018 21:17

@RatRolyPoly what is it you want to challenge?

This thread has actually covered so many aspects of trans ideology and its impact.

And many people have repeatedly said their respect for and acceptance of transexuals, who have been through a process to identify as the opposite 'gender'.

Also many have said how supportive they have been of transexual people in the past. It is only now when we are told by some there is no such thing as female biology, that we should not have the right to say no to a male nurse, that there is no such thing as a male nurse if they think they are female (I've been told this basically in real life, not on this thread), it is only now that many people, especially many women, are upset at the attemt to erase us as a sex class.

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 21:17

I'm not suggesting there are heinous characters on here Bronwen, at least no more than there are in any walk of life.

Killdora · 08/02/2018 21:17

I would actually like to understand how the view point that anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman works, can anyone explain it to me. This is a genuine question

That view point can never work, not in a rational mind.

It's deliberately confusing a specific sexual fantasy of some with genuine mental disorders of others.

Italiangreyhound · 08/02/2018 21:19

@Killdora I know but I'd like someone to explain it to me who really believes it!

NannyOggsKnickers · 08/02/2018 21:19

The people on this thread are normal women. Also, what in hell is a ‘normal’ woman. This smacks of exclusivity.

You have decided that people on this thread aren’t normal women rat. How did you come to that fairly offensive conclusion?

HairyBallTheorem · 08/02/2018 21:20

Maryz that absolutely nails it.

Without a definition, we cannot tell the difference between "true trans" and taking the piss to wind women up/win races you don't deserve to win men.

And in practical terms it does not matter in any case. Whether the man in question genuinely believes he ought to have been a woman, or is using cross-dressing as a cover for dubious behaviour, I don't want him in the front row of the scrum in a supposedly women's rugby match, exposing his opponents to risk of spinal injury, or in a women's prison filled with women who have a history of being sexually abused by men, or looking up my foof when I go for a smear test.

WitchIwasaWitch18 · 08/02/2018 21:21

I mentioned this thread at work. One of the younger men (who does always like to argue and prove a point) said anyone self identifying as a woman had the absolute right to join a throng of teenage girls trying on clothes. Another joked about what a good idea for him to try at the weekend and he was uncomfortable with gay men looking at him at the gym. The middle aged guy hadn't a clue what we were talking about but once he got the gist was horrified and bewildered and couldn't believe this was even being suggested.
I can't help thinking that there is going to be some extremely violent reactions when "normal" people realise what is going on. There is no way on earth the middle aged guy would stand and watch a man enter a changing room where his daughters or nieces were and I am sure he will not be the only one. I think a lot of people are going to get hurt, not just women. What a mess.

NannyOggsKnickers · 08/02/2018 21:25

The issue here is actually the same as Brexit. There is an online bubble of people who are willing each other to believe something against all rational evidence.

The trouble is that their made up cause doesn’t stand up to any sort of scrutiny or have any grounding in day to day life. It is the kind of argument that could be destroyed by three blokes in a pub in about five minutes. And it will be.

If the discussion of trans rights remains dominated by this ludicrous anti-biology, homophobic narrative then it will crumble when put to the test in the court of public opinion and set the rights of trans people back a long, long way.

A few more stories like Marie Dean and everyone will have an opinion. Many of them will not be anywhere as polite of respectful as the ones discussed on here. I really don’t understand how TRAs are so short sighted.

Charismam · 08/02/2018 21:29

I agree, although we're all discussing it on here, there are a lot of ''normal'' people in my office who might lurk on fora or might post somewhere but these issues are still 'what do you say there?'' to them. I think the vast majority of people would be shocked to discover that there's pressure to accept transmentowomen in changing rooms, women's prisons, in women's sport - or be labelled transphobic. Confused

PidgeonPodge · 08/02/2018 21:33

The people on this thread are normal women. Also, what in hell is a ‘normal’ woman. This smacks of exclusivity

You have decided that people on this thread aren’t normal women rat. How did you come to that fairly offensive conclusion?

I suspect that if I 'identified' as it, Rat would say that I am in fact the most normal woman here.

Is that right rat? Grin

Spidermama · 08/02/2018 21:39

UpstartCrow may I just say I am loving your work?

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 08/02/2018 21:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 21:43

Hi @italiangreyhound, sorry, I'm not ignoring you! And Bronwen too. I've written and rewritten this post but I'm afraid I just haven't put in the thinking time necessary to articulate my position. I don't want to start just speaking off the cuff before I'm quite clear in my own mind. Is that okay? But I can tell you in my world we wholeheartedly reject externally-imposed gender stereotypes and we believe in the immutability of biological sex. We also believe transgender women and men when they tell us they are women or men. We believe them. Maybe not the first time they tell us, maybe not without psychological assessment, maybe not if they're children or vulnerable or criminal or otherwise nefarious, but fundamentally we believe them. And if that means our world view is insufficient, well, there's no point holding a fairy in your hands and screaming at it that it can't exist.

And as for how to approach this regarding women, we do not prioritise those individuals above women. But we prioritise human decency over men and women, because what would any of us have if first we abandoned that.

And more than that or speaking for myself I'm afraid I can't yet tell you.

NannyOggsKnickers · 08/02/2018 21:45

Ok, shouldn’t have mentioned Brexit. Obviously a sensitive subject.

I am not drawing parallels with either side of the Brexit debate. Just that online communities often convince themselves of the universality of their opinions. A la Brexit.

PidgeonPodge · 08/02/2018 21:47

And if that means our world view is insufficient, well, there's no point holding a fairy in your hands and screaming at it that it can't exist

To be fair, this discussion is more like someone else holding their hands tightly closed and asking people to sacrifice something for the sake of the magic fairy they swear blind is in their hands.

But they refuse to show it to us.

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