Disgusted by all the transphobia here

[MikePeterson]

A very good friend of mine and a long time poster here has spent most of her day crying because this fresh wave of transphobia in a community she thought she was welcome in has finally broken her spirits. After obtaining her permission, I am posting this because it needs to be said.

She is a woman with a penis and has identified as such since she was old enough to understand the concept of gender. Being female is part of her identity but so is her body, such as it is and untouched by surgery and artificial hormones. She is a beautiful individual and, to my eye, presents a much more feminine image than, ironically, Linda Bellos and several of her fellow bigots.

Arguing that, because of potential past trauma involving males, causing seeing a penis or even an individual likely to be in possession of a penis to be triggering is justification for segregation is as absurd as it is offensive. Would it be acceptable for a woman who was the victim of a violent crime commuted by a particular ethnic minority to demand that all members of that race be segregated in changing rooms and domestic violence shelters? Of course not.

Equally ludicrous is the claim that transgender women somehow had the privilege of living as a man. Cisgendered women are light years ahead of transgender women in terms of privilege and if you wish to continue denying this, you are no better than the most vile male misogynists.

Finally, think about how disrespectful you are being to all women, you are reducing all the wonderful differences between the genders to what someone has between their legs. The same feminist ancestors who fought for your right to vote, to be regarded as more than domestic servants and baby machines would spit on you for your intolerance.

I worry about the old school transvestites I see around my office - mostly older men wearing odd women’s clothes (not quite fitting, not hanging properly, jumble of styles and fabrics) and ratty wigs. I’ve seen some of them for years now, doing their shopping, going to the library, having a coffee, walking the dog...

These men aren’t the ones demanding more rights than women, just want to wear wat they want and don’t believe that they actually are women. They will be pushed aside by the new wave of angry men and sadly pushed into the limelight of the new world gender obsession.

Angry, self-obsessed spoiled men/boys.

As regards the (very bad) cis is like straight analogy there are several reasons why this is bad. From a dykes point of view, the whole reason for gay/straight was that in the bad ole days, the assumption was that we were all straight and since you couldn't tell by looking, unless you told someone, no one would ever know. So, the label was to better distinguish gay people from non-gay people. And since non-gay was a bit of a mouthful (stop tittering at the back!), 'straight' came along instead.

Whereas in the trans/cis case, you have two categories which initially were distinct (female women, and males who wanted to be/felt they were female/women, insert your favourite definition here), and trying to label them in order to hide the distinction. Which is why cis popped up, because the whole point was trying to make trans/cis subsets of 'women', despite the fact that in terms of most peoples perceptions, women and trans women were already distinct.

I'm sure this would all be a lot clearer if I could draw a Venn diagram. But gay/straight tried to make clear a distinction within a group that was formerly thought to be homogeneous, where trans/cis is trying to (artificially) disappear a distinction and make a single group out of what actually isn't............(apologies for mixing terms from set theory and group theory BTW). It's the difference between saying 'We exist' (gay folks) versus 'we're the same as you' (TRAs). Disagreeing with the latter isn't saying trans folk don't exist, it's just resisting their attempted grab of territory........

But can you see how some people are reacting to this? The knee-jerk reaction of normal people with no axe to grind?

Erm...right back atcha...

I was, and am, gender non-conforming, so gender (which is defined as a social or cultural differences) means nothing to me. I agree that it's an artificial social construct and also think it's outdated.

People just need to stop the angst and live as themselves. Just because a man isn't 'manly' enough to meet social expectations, it doesn't make him a woman.

Having hormone treatment and surgery, doesn't make him a woman.

Rat - I don't think it's for you to say what "is normal looking in".

I had no clue about all this stuff, and the implications of it without Mumsnet.

Real life women (you know- women you pass in the street) are actually horrified when they hear the extent of it. I don't know a single woman who is genuinely comfortable sharing changing/toilet space with males.

That's what #peaktrans is all about.

I can say that the vast, vast majority of us actualy came to out current positions from first being unquestionably transactivists narrative accepting. Or thinking this was just about post op transsexual people. Once peole understand that this is not actually abot transsexual people, nor would they benefit at all from self ID...it all falls into place and tends to equal gender critical.

I mean, at one stage I was yelling transphobe at anyone who would not lie and say 'transwomen are women' too.

There was a consultation a while back that actually showed that more people are against of the current narrative than for. I believe it may have been a yougov one. It was close, but more were against it. I do believe that it would be less close now, with more leaning to the gender critical side, as a LOT more bullshit has came out since then and a lot more ridiculous demands have been made. And..a lot of women have woken up to it all, trough dialogue between friends. MN has a huge membership base. And all of those members have friends and family. Along with papers actually publicizing it all now. Many now know, and thats why more are against it.

Hell the whole Rose McGowan thing (and the reaction to it) appeared to 'peak' half my friendslist in one go.

What looks normal from the outside looking in Rat?

All the people in my circle, including men funnily enough, align with prevailing view on MN regarding the TRA Agenda, the changes to the GRC, the erosion of Female Only spaces, the erosion of the meaning of the word woman, I could go on. The opposite, extreme, vociferous view found on Social Media finds no traction where I am, however, due to the threats, insults and harm the TRA's can do to people's careers and general standing they do not tend to engage in debate on SM instead they work quietly behind the scenes.

Well said maryz.

Possibly because we're all old enough to have children or if not, gone through our careers dealing with men's expectations that we will have children, so we recognise women being shafted simply for being women when we see it.

Yes.

I was reading this article earlier linked on the crowdfunder and was struck by the headlining photo and just how young all those women are.

Most look barely out of college or Uni, they really have no idea what the next couple of decades of of being a woman might bring for them.

I think most of us can remember the unbridled optimism of youth and the naivety about life's realities. I kind of miss it, it was infinitely more pleasant than being rad pilled.

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/the-gender-debate-is-dividing-the-left-we-mustn-t-forget-that-our-unity-is-our-strength#.Wnyfx4whC_R.twitter

HairyBall that is absolutely true what you say about people surrounding themselves with people with similar outlooks; we all like to have our opinions validated by those around us. All of us. And it's important that that's challenged I think.

I have found that the gay men I know are against self ID. Actually the gay women are too.

I guess maybe know who they are and are comfortable with that. They know they aren’t unicorns.

Helpful SomeDyke, thank you.

calm down everyone, we've been told!

Mike's tearful mate is hotter than us so we're clearly just well jel

Echoing Greer here - very, very, few transwomen I've met "pass" well. I mean they look fine in an everyday way, and it isn't their job to look a certain way, any more than mine is - but they are clearly identifiable as trans.

Never mind clever camera angles and makeup and heels and miniskirts.

this is part of the stupidity - boys being told "you can easily be a sexy girl who everyone desires and gets to the front of the queue at expensive clubs and everyone who disagrees is a hate filled bigot".

Part of the rage is finding out that this lie isn't actually true.

It isn't the TERF bitches who are the problem, but the cultish ideology of the transactivists (which is sadly pretty accessible via the internet now)

Teenage years are shit for insecurity and self esteem and body image and sexuality generally (I remember those fifty beauty products i I had stashed away hoping they'd turn me into something else!)

But a spotty chubby boy who is given hormones and grows his hair long and puts on lipstick and puts in fake breasts isn't suddenly going to get the lifestyle of Meghan Markle.

There aren't any shortcuts to being attractive and desired, apart from being happy with yourself.

And it's important that that's challenged I think.

But actually challenged is great. I cannot only speak for myself when I say I would absolutely love someone to come on fromn the transactivists side and actually argue their point of view, firmly and clearly. But this never ever seems to happen. Instead we get ploppers with mass insults and ridiculous 'you're homophobic' posts, false analogies, and generally being extremely evasive, avoiding answering any questions, calling us big meanines, then flouncing off. I mean, surely there IS an argument from the other side? There must be. And if there is, why is it never ever posted? Especially if, as you say, most do agree with it all. At least one person would be able to do this if this was the case, there should be many, so why isn't there?!

I will say one thing for you, Rat - you've stuck around and come up with arguments. I haven't found any of them convincing (specially not on the women and sport thread), but at least you've tried.

(I suspect that's because, as Johnson once remarked of the women arguing from upper-floor windows across the street "I fear they will never agree because they are arguing from different premises." To you it seems self evidently true that transwomen are women, for me it is equally self evidently true that transwomen are men. However I have biology on my side.)

But most of the transactivist sympathisers we have on here come along, plop ("you're all so transphobic and homophobic [sic] and old and out of touch") then run, never making any attempt to argue.

Rat What challenge to opinion was Jude making? It was just a ream of insults.

What challenge to the view you see as being espoused on MN would you like to make Rat?

The knee jerk of all the 'normal' (non mnetters I suppose you mean) people I've spoken to about this has been 'WTAF?' followed by 'why is no one talking about this?!' followed by high speed peak trans. YMMV.

I am angry about this. It is not right. It is not ok. I will not go along with it. And you can go on telling me how unliberal it is and how naughty we are and how no normal people think like this - which really is just 'shhhh. shhh now. No. Shut up. Go along with it like good girls' and it just makes me more determined that women who have been socialised to enforce this crap are the biggest problem that women's rights have right now.

#NotShuttingUp.

We need to change the conversation to "protecting and celebrating gender non-conforming kids"

This is from Fekko upthread, I think, but it's so true. I'm all about gender non-conforming behavior being supported. Breaking down meaningless gender norms that oppress all of us, men and women, is what feminism should be all about.

The TRA agenda is not about supporting non-conforming behavior, however. It's about reinforcing gender norms even more by assuming that any GNC person must by default be transgender.

Kids go through phases of gender non-conforming behavior. It's normal. I wore boys clothes a lot when I was 10 or 11 and didn't have typical girl interests. Quite a few of my friends were the same. A couple of us came out as lesbian later in life. I happen to be straight. We all figured things out and found our place. I can't imagine the pressure kids are under these days to make complex decisions and identify themselves one way or the other at a time when they should be free to experiment, not making life-changing commitments.

Far too eloquent for me but ‘hear hear’!

What looks normal from the outside looking in Rat?

Yes, you are of course right with that.

The view is very different from where I'm standing than it would be were I in your world it would seem, except noone here has any time for Twitter hate and heinous characters of any kind here either - so at least we have that in common.

I mean, surely there IS an argument from the other side? There must be.
Because I said so, seems to be the gist of the trans identified males authoritarian argument.
It is a rather familiar argument to most of us.

InionEile
Trans pressure groups have overreached themselves, moving from offering legitimate advice / training about anti bullying to schools and promoting gender non conformity into 'enforcing' social change in schools. Removing single sex toilets, changing language, gaslighting children into believing that they can change sex, eroding both boy's and girl's rights to establish boundaries. They are peddling fake statistics about suicide and promoting children taking body changing drugs while under the age of consent. Actively promoting social contagion and eroding safeguarding practice - without any challenge.

I will say one thing for you, Rat - you've stuck around and come up with arguments. I haven't found any of them convincing (specially not on the women and sport thread), but at least you've tried.

I dunno. The one simple question we have all asked repeatedly is 'what is woman' and Rat (along with every other transperson or TRA) has failed to answer.

There are loads and loads of reasonable, sensible questions and none of them ever get answered by the people that support self ID etc.

Rat are you suggesting there are heinous characters here on MN, or just on Social Media?

What is the alternative view that is common amongst your circle and is a challenge to, or different from, what you read on here?

This is from Fekko upthread, I think, but it's so true. I'm all about gender non-conforming behavior being supported. Breaking down meaningless gender norms that oppress all of us, men and women, is what feminism should be all about.

I think a very large part of feminism has always been to get rid of gender completely and just let everyone be themselves. I think this is why TRAs hate us so much, as without gender to cling onto, how will they twist language in such ways that they can claim some entitlement to 'womanhood'? They freely admit they are not dysphoric, so what else is there? No 'gender' = no 'transgender' and this means...back to 'transsexual' people only. Which suits me just fine to be honest. I have no issue at all supporting the genuinely body dysphoric. And TRAs/MRAs would have to crawl back under whatever bridge they came from under and come up with another plan of attack, to break down the rights of women as women are getting way too uppity for their liking recently.