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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Disgusted by all the transphobia here

1000 replies

MikePeterson · 04/02/2018 16:12

A very good friend of mine and a long time poster here has spent most of her day crying because this fresh wave of transphobia in a community she thought she was welcome in has finally broken her spirits. After obtaining her permission, I am posting this because it needs to be said.

She is a woman with a penis and has identified as such since she was old enough to understand the concept of gender. Being female is part of her identity but so is her body, such as it is and untouched by surgery and artificial hormones. She is a beautiful individual and, to my eye, presents a much more feminine image than, ironically, Linda Bellos and several of her fellow bigots.

Arguing that, because of potential past trauma involving males, causing seeing a penis or even an individual likely to be in possession of a penis to be triggering is justification for segregation is as absurd as it is offensive. Would it be acceptable for a woman who was the victim of a violent crime commuted by a particular ethnic minority to demand that all members of that race be segregated in changing rooms and domestic violence shelters? Of course not.

Equally ludicrous is the claim that transgender women somehow had the privilege of living as a man. Cisgendered women are light years ahead of transgender women in terms of privilege and if you wish to continue denying this, you are no better than the most vile male misogynists.

Finally, think about how disrespectful you are being to all women, you are reducing all the wonderful differences between the genders to what someone has between their legs. The same feminist ancestors who fought for your right to vote, to be regarded as more than domestic servants and baby machines would spit on you for your intolerance.

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13
SteX · 08/02/2018 19:19
  • Not all men are like that disclaimer as is needed on such a post. but enough are -

One is one too many.

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 19:21

What are you on about Secret? Did you read the post I was referring to? Oh nevermind.

Rufus I have never waded into any of those discussions at all because I think they are completely valid.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 08/02/2018 19:23

I know you do rat

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 08/02/2018 19:24

And I do have a problem with many under the 'transgender umbrella' actually, thinking about it. Even though I apparently come under the umbrella myself due to not being a walking stereotype (is anyone?!)

Not with actual transsexual people though. Nope, not them. Have been cracking on quite nicely with them for a very long time until the transactivists started their shit.

Maatsuyker · 08/02/2018 19:28

I do NOT identify as a Cis woman and will battle anyone who calls me that. My sex is female and my gender is woman. I will not respect any TRA or transgender who refuses to acknowledge me as a woman.

Fairenuff · 08/02/2018 19:29

'Actually the word "cis" has much more in common with the word "straight" in the context of homosexuality. Before there was gay there was no need for straight, and the straight folks didn't much like it when there was! Now I'm not bringing homosexuality into it, I'm just tidying up your example. Hope you can see what I'm saying'

No. Because, unless asked, no-one has to say they're 'straight'.

In my whole life, as a woman, I have never had to say I'm 'straight'.

Following your logic, I should never have to say I'm 'cis'

But in any case, if women did start to refer to themselves as 'cis' the transwomen would want that term too. Because they don't want to differentiate themselves from real women.

The term 'cis' would mean 'real' and the transwomen would be greedily grabbing that one too.

rowdywoman1 · 08/02/2018 19:29

I love the ploppers and wooshers like Jude.

Every time we complain about the shouting, the hostility, the aggression thrown at women by activists they pop up and role model it - to perfection. They shout that we're transphobic, never give any examples, never debate (#nodebate innit) and then off they go.

#peaktransplusplusplusplus

Rachie1973 · 08/02/2018 19:30

Judecarr123
God forbid should any of your kids be gay for instance!

My daughter is married to a woman. I'm not sure what that has to do with me wanting to protect her in a female safe space.

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 19:36

Not my example Fairenuff, I never said it was perfect.

Fairenuff · 08/02/2018 19:38

But you did agree with it Rat

thebewilderness · 08/02/2018 19:40

There is no such thing as a cis person because we are human being not isomers. It is dehumanizing to 'other' women in this way, but it is a male tradition, so there is that.

Datun · 08/02/2018 19:40

Judecarr123
salmonofwisdom
Bringonspring

Why do all these posters say I haven't read it, but I've never heard such awful stuff?

Seriously?

Did no-one ever take a red pen to a single one of their school essays?

Absolute drivel.

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 19:41

No, I said (I paraphrase), "if you're going to use that as an example it makes more sense to liken the word "cis" to the word "straight" than to liken it to "gay"" (or whatever the exact word was the poster used). Perhaps I wasn't clear.

Fairenuff · 08/02/2018 19:42

You were clear. But you were wrong. For the reasons I have already given.

BronwenFrideswide · 08/02/2018 19:45

Rat what is it you think posts like Jude's are saying? Do you really think it's a valid contribution to debate to say "all women must have a penis up them"? Taken apart from what else was said that sounds pretty threatening and totally disregards all the lesbians on here, or the mothers of lesbians.

I would also be very wary of assuming Jude was a woman.

There is a debate to be had, TRA's don't want it and are determined to stop it and posters like Jude don't appear to be interested in it either unless throwing insults and then disappearing in a puff or smoke is deemed as debating.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 08/02/2018 19:46

if any company were to withdraw advertising sponsorship on the grounds Mumsnet allows women (real ones) to speak out against a particularly vocal set of nasty manipulative men then I'd want to know so I could boycott them.

And I 100% agree with this. I think many women would follow suit too. A year ago, these kind of posts would be filled with 'I hope your friend is ok, what nasty bigots' and such. But now, the tide has certainly turned and instead of a few gender critical comments, it seems to be fewer and fewer TRA supporters. Which is good to see. IRL I see a large difference too, which is heartening. And you know what? Every person I know who has turned gender critical, still does support actual transsexual people and think they should live free of harassment and violence. Which is also obviously good. Now, go ask a transactivists what they think of 'terfs'. Or check out terfisaslur.com for some examples. Also have sections on the 'cotton ceiling' (lesbians who refuse to shag male people, oh the bigots) and outright biology denial, among others. I do wonder how big that site would have been today, had it kept being updated.

I am sure MN come under 'threat' from transactivists every day, so they will be used to the MRA tactics anyway. I am sure from the day they made the decision to allow women to speak freely on the topic rather than censoring us, they have came in for a lot of flak. And even before this, being a predominately female space, plus with a high percentage of feminists...they will have been targets of MRAs constantly anyway I imagine. TRAs are exactly the same as MRAs. Just trying the tactics from a different angle.

I do not envy you, HQ Flowers

Disgusted by all the transphobia here
ZBIsabella · 08/02/2018 19:46

Well said, rowdy.

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 19:47

No. Because, unless asked, no-one has to say they're 'straight'.

In my whole life, as a woman, I have never had to say I'm 'straight'.*

Following your logic, I should never have to say I'm 'cis'

This? I can't see why this makes the word "cis" more like the word "gay" than the word "straight". Perhaps we'll have to agree to differ - I think it's a bull analogy anyway, just marginally less bull the way round that I had it.

NannyOggsKnickers · 08/02/2018 19:50

It looks like the TRAs are invading again.

At least the lovely ladies on here actually engage in debate and are willing to talk without threats.

Keep up the good work. You’ve made me brace enough to broach this with people in real life. The conversation usually goes like this:

That’s fake news
No, really
That’s awful
How did this happen?
What can I do?

Usually in the space of ten minutes.

So we aren’t a minority. Most people just don’t know yet. The more sunshine we pour on this the better.

Fairenuff · 08/02/2018 19:53

Rat I really don't know what you're talking about. 'Cis' is nothing to do with 'gay' or 'straight'. It isn't 'more like' one word or another.

If you want all real women to say they're cis, where does that leave the transwomen?

India Willoughby famously shouted 'I'm a REAL woman' at real women in the Big Brother house. If the term 'cis' is accepted by real women then IW wouldn't be able to do that.

It would be a step backward for transwomen and real women.

But maybe that's what the male TRA's want?

Maryz · 08/02/2018 19:53

Oh, ffs, yet another thread where RatRolyPoly appears and insists she's not seen TRAs being abusive, and doesn't know anything about anything, but still supports posters calling everyone out on their transphobia.

She will now come along and say I've misunderstood her, and she's made her position perfectly clear, but she doesn't actually know what her position is, but she's sure it's the right one and everyone else is wrong.

Then she'll be too busy to even read, much less answer, any questions. And for some reason be unable to even see any comments.

RatRolyPoly · 08/02/2018 19:54

Bronwen what I think posters like Jude contribute is an outside perspective, and in an environment like this I think that should be heard. (And it's misleading to quote her as saying "all women must have a penis up them" as it's completely out of context.)

Perhaps Jude is a great big hairy troll, perhaps we all are, but I've met enough women lately who've had exactly the same response to MN lately and I think it's important that message filters in.

Frequency · 08/02/2018 19:55

Sexuality is fluid.

Sex is not.

There are two sexes — male and female.

Transwomen are a subset of the male sex ergo there is no reason to label women cis. We don't need a new label, we have one already and object to it being stolen. If transwomen want to attempt to defy biology and create a different kind of woman, they can make their own bloody label. We already have ours.

Fairenuff · 08/02/2018 19:56

And then she will disappear Maryz in true Rat style.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 08/02/2018 20:00

Cis implies we are all fine with the stereotypes we are expected to perform. Most of us, are not.

Also people will say ciswoman for real woman, and just woman for transwomen. Which is clearly silly and pretty damn offensive.

Woman means adult human female. Only adult human females can be women. And adult human females do not have penises. If this hurts someones gender feels, then sorry but its tough.

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