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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bravo Janice Turner!

267 replies

NotALabourMemberImAfraidLads · 03/02/2018 00:21

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/labour-s-purge-of-the-trans-rights-heretics-p32khgn36

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 04/02/2018 22:24

Interesting re: sharing on Facebook. It is entirely possible they are not showing up, given facebook's form for censoring posts on feminism, and the criteria they use for community standards.

That's a good point.

Though it would be astonishing if they stopped an article from a UK mainstream paper from being shared (I didn't comment on the article, jsut shared a sharetoken version of it)

OlennasWimple · 04/02/2018 22:26

ALittleBit - I'm a wolf in ewe's clothing Wink

ALittleBitOfButter · 04/02/2018 22:36

Oh sorry does sheep mean male in the UK? Here in Australia we use ram for male.

Regressionconfession · 04/02/2018 22:36

Yes!!!!! Brilliant piece of journalism! This and Rose McGowen this weekend have both been amazing!

Regressionconfession · 04/02/2018 22:54

I want to read Caitlin Moran on this next!!!

hipsterfun · 04/02/2018 23:03

Unless she’s changed her tune, you’ll be disappointed.

Regressionconfession · 04/02/2018 23:14

Oh that is disappointing.

Justabunchofcunts · 04/02/2018 23:40

That's surprising about Caitlin Moran. Although I think a lot of people don't get it yet. I can't imagine having read her work she wouldn't see it if she looked.

Does anyone have a link to anything by her on this area?

hipsterfun · 05/02/2018 00:14

Google Caitlin Moran and transgender?

EmyRoo · 05/02/2018 07:17

I peak transed my mum with this article, she is writing to her MP now. We had a long conversation about it a couple of weeks ago and she had no idea. She is educated, progressive and not at all conservative, so I am a bit surprised but she instantly saw it as a threat to all she thought women had achieved in her lifetime.

On a different note, I think one of the reasons the TRAs accusations of bigotry are so powerful is that women are socialised to be inclusive and welcoming to others. It massively goes against the grain to draw boundaries; if you think about how recent things like the tea video are and the move towards affirmative consent and the prevalence of rape myths. And society colludes in the lack of boundaries, because women used to be the property of men and are still seen and scrutinised as a public good. We are supposed to work for the good of others, whether that is our children, families, husbands, paid service roles and so on.

But I think transactivism is a form of abuse, because saying no is not listened to here. People on this board have discussed the issues of consent around transing children, but not so much, I don’t think, the fact that consent is violated by a male-bodied person changing in a female changing space. The changing might not be sexual (but with AGP, it is surely?), hence the issue of consent could be moot, but not listening to no is abusive. Female people (not all, but many) are saying no. Why is it okay to ignore that no and push past fenale people’s boundaries? The place I experienced that before was in an abusive relationship.

The TRA counter-argument would be that trans people’s rights to a safe environment are not being respected by GC women. This comes down to the definition of safe and where the danger lies. If there is a physical danger from men or an internal discomfort, then why not have separate cubicle spaces, gender neutral toilets and so on?

The TRA argument (also evident in some policy documents) is that separate spaces goes against the innate sense of gender identity (hence is unsafe). This is where JT is spot on, the idea of an innate sense of gender identity is akin to a belief - but other religions do not force non-believers to adapt (at least not in this country). And the provisions which the gender identity religion demands clash with the beliefs and provisions other religions need (so Muslim women need same sex bathroom space to participate in public life, but so do many no -Muslim women wish it; many Christian women believe there is God-given sexual difference —but not necessarily the hierarchy that goes with it in the Bible—). Why does the gender identity religion win out? Is it about power? Because that would mesh with understandings of abuse too, particularly the silencing of criticism and turning it back on the unfriendly, aggressive women. Yep, been called that before for seeking to defend the things dear to me.

Dozer · 05/02/2018 07:36

Caitlin Moran has got it wrong on this.

hipsterfun · 05/02/2018 08:57

To be fair to CT, she may well have had a rethink since it became clear, as it has to many of us, that the trans people we had in mind are not the TRAs we are faced with now.

Justabunchofcunts · 05/02/2018 09:16

Fair point hipster!

Justabunchofcunts · 05/02/2018 09:22

(On both googling and rethink)

Quickchange1 · 05/02/2018 19:03

EmyRoo excellent points. I also think the outright refusal to a 3rd place is opressive and abusive. Its a compromise showing empathy to women whilst keeping TIM's away from men. It's so opressive to force themselves in women only spaces, god forbid they stepped down a bit.

PeakMcPeakFace · 05/02/2018 19:27

I've read through a few of the threads over the last few days, and the thing that keeps leaping out at me is that it's always women who are having to make the concessions regarding trans.

They can't stay in a male space without threat or endangerment, so rather than educate and work towards providing safe spaces within their sex they demand access to women's space and attack women for not blindly agreeing. (This is obviously aimed at those that haven't gone through full gender reassignment).

Where is the anger towards men, who I am going to guess are the main culprits of the physical crime against trans? Are boards such as Pistonheads and the like being bombarded with floods of posts on why they aren't more accommodating, or men being judged for not finding transwomen attractive as they are apparently actual women?

I'm hedging my bets its a big fat nope.

I think it says an awful lot about a very small, but unfortunately vocal, subset of trans people that they would rather attack and erode woman's rights rather than tackle the larger issue of acceptance.

thebewilderness · 05/02/2018 19:30

It is a big lie that trans identified males are a subset of category female and not category male. On the basis of this lie women are expected to accommodate males who are afraid, or so they say, of other males.
When offered the safety they claim they need most trans identified males refuse and reiterate their demand for access to women and girls.
These are abusive men behaving the way abusive men behave.

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