M&S changing room policy

[iamawoman]

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

The constant "but what about lesbians?" stuff is so homophobic. Lesbians are women and were socialized as such. Even if they were in general capable of overpowering other women, which they're not, they still wouldn't be the threat that men are because they weren't raised the same way men were.

It's an attempt at deflection, and an offensive one at that.

I've just emailed M&S to query their policy and state that if changing rooms were no longer segregated based on biological sex then I'd be shopping somewhere else. I also reminded them that women are over 50% of the population and transgender people are less than 0.5% and that it should be possible for them to create a third space.
Bizarrely I couldn't send the message as it apparently contained an 'offensive word or phrase' - this turned out to be the word 'sex' which I had to put apostrophes around. Sort of confirms my theory that we're in this state because the word gender is used as a euphemism for biological sex.
Oh and for all those people who are cool and groovy with mixed spaces then great - but many aren't and should be allowed privacy based on biology.

That's not what I said. I said I think it goes without saying that non-trans people of any sexual orientation would use the changing room associated with their sex.

Wrong.

There is a link to what happened at target in America. When they changed their policy.

Men who do not identify as women, filmed themselves talking to the shop assistants to clarify that they were allowed to go into the women's and walked in to make a point.

Filming it. And uploading it to YouTube.

There then ensued incidents of men changing next to women/girls, and filming them under the partition.

There are numerous men who will take advantage of a unisex policy. There are whole websites devoted to voyeurism and confirming which shops are the easiest in which to commit the crime.

So, on the one hand, you have regular voyeurs and predators taking advantage of the policy, on the other hand you have fetishist individuals lapping up the policy.

All for the sake of a few hundred men who have gender dysphoria, who I don't want in there anyway. And most of whom aren't interested in intimidating women in the first place. Are happy to use the men's.

If there's one thing to take away from this, is please, please stop being naive.

This is a policy FOR men. Driven by men and will be taken advantage of by men.

www.google.co.uk/amp/dailysignal.com/2017/03/16/its-not-fake-news-predators-are-taking-advantage-of-targets-fitting-room-policy/amp/

morningrunner completely agree, me too. I think the argument is that transwomen would put themselves in a statistically different category and say they're far less likely to pose the same threat you as the men you're referencing. I'm sure someone will have the stats, but aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women, but still far less of a threat than other men? I don't know if that's a consideration for the policy-makers?

98% of sexually violent crime is committed by men. Not lesbians.

Can we have enough with the what about the lesbians?

but aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women, but still far less of a threat than other men?

Transwomen, statistically are an equal threat to other men. There is no difference in male pattern violence.

With the added complication of any man being able to say they are trans and, according to any definition, they genuinely are.

So transwomen are the same as other men, plus they now can include statistically more violent men.

If there's one thing to take away from this, is please, please stop being naive.

Perhaps it is naivety, I'm open to the possibility. I'm not convinced, but I am open. And I'm listening. So thank you.

People don't get to put themselves in a different statistical category, because statistics are not feelings based. Though they may becomes so if the GRA amendments go through, thus rendering the statistics useless for all practical purposes.

Can we have enough with the what about the lesbians?

Just for clarity it wasn't "what about lesbians", it was "this can't be about denying someone the ability to think sexy things about you", because that isn't something we police. Hopefully that's clear.

Transwomen, statistically are an equal threat to other men.

I'm surprised by this, do you have a source?

"The constant "but what about lesbians?" stuff is so homophobic"

Totally is homophobic.

I have never had a come on from a random lesbian, despite hanging about in gay clubs for years and getting naked amongst them at sport events. In fact, when I first went to Uni sports, all the women were butt naked except my friend and me, struggling to change under our towels, like the nice good girls we were. One of the coaches said kindly, stop making things difficult for yourselves - you have not got anything hiding under there that the rest of us don't have?

And she was right.

Because women are not a threat to me

Of course #NotAllWomenAreLikeThat

This just makes no sense. Its just seems to be complaining for the sake of it. It will cause more harm to interrogate people over their gender as they enter M&S changing rooms than it ever will to just let people use the changing room they want. Primarily because M&S changing rooms are well staffed and well lit. They all have thick and long lockable doors.
Very little chance of a random man saying hes trans just to come and perv on women. That is just very unlikely to happen and even if it was attempted would not get very far.

What people here are proposing about gender being challenged at the door is far more likely to cause trauma. I certainly wouldnt want to have my gender challenged when im just trying to try on some clothes. Why should I demand that anyone else does?

and yes I have been sexually assaulted and raped, and yes I have faced male violence. But this has nothing to do with that. I would be locked in my own private cubicle, no one is going to see my naked body or get anywhere near me. I would have the same private space I have always had.

Maybe not rat. But lesbians are often invoked. And I must've explained the difference hundreds of times. So forgive me if I'm coming across as irritated by it.

Apart from the statistical unlikelihood of an attack by a lesbian, I personally, don't feel the same about a lesbian finding me sexually attractive and a man perving.

As evidenced by the way I have just described it!

The sense of entitlement and objectification that is demonstrated by men is at the root of the difference.

Even if a lesbian literally had her tongue hanging out panting at me, I wouldn't feel like it was pervy.

Simply doesn't give rise to the negative feelings that lasciviousness from men does.

"someone will have the stats, but aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women, but still far less of a threat than other men?"

I've never seen any evidence of this.

Wind, read the thread and look at the Target predators upthread when they changed the policy there. Also Datun's post on it.

*Transwomen, statistically are an equal threat to other men.

I'm surprised by this, do you have a source?*

Here is the Swedish study. Showing that transwomen retain male pattern violence.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

This is a newspaper report of a study done by fair play for women. Who found that up to half of transwomen prisoners are there for sex offences. Way beyond average.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/up-to-half-of-trans-inmates-may-be-sex-offenders-26rz2crhs

windchimesabotage

Have you read the thread?

datun ive actually been sexually assaulted by a lesbian and it was pretty horrendous. Made worse by the fact that no one thought it was a big deal and some even thought it was funny simply because it was a woman on a woman.
Im certainly not saying im scared of lesbians now or any such shit. And its true id be more physically scared of a man because they tend to be bigger are more capable of hurting me. But the event was none the less traumatic.
Personally I think its pretty awful being sexually assaulted by anyone and it can happen anywhere and from any gender.
You have to look at the likelyhood tho. Who has ever been sexually assaulted by a stranger in M&S changing rooms?? Its not very likely to happen at all. Like i said its usually very well staffed and all the doors have locks.

Ive been sexually assaulted in the street in broad daylight and on a tube train again in the middle of the day.

I just dont think peoples objections to this M&S situation have anything to do with the risk of sexual assault or being perved on. I think they are a general protest against transwomen being thought of or accepted as women.

aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women, but still far less of a threat than other men?

It depends what you mean.

The two main studies (and no, I'm busy so I'm not going to find an unpaywalled link for you - just search for yourself) conducted so far conclude that TIMs have exactly the same offending patterns as men. No difference or reduction post transition.

But that's crime in general.

Studies into sex offenders conclude that the most common paraphilia in the male cohort is cross dressing. About 50% of male sex offenders are also cross dressers.

Since the trans umbrella and self-ID campaign now includes cross dressers as bona fide trans, then yes, I think we can conclude that TIMs are at least as much of a danger to women as men, but quite possibly more of a danger.

I have never had a come on from a random lesbian

It's not necessarily relevant to this discussion, but I have 100% experienced this in sport, as have a good many of my friends! I remember one woman in particular who would make a beeline for any new schoolgirl to join the team (and we were all around 14 years old coming in at this level whilst the rest of the team were older, even ageing women) and was really sexually aggressive and physically intimidating. She was not the only one, but by god she was the worst! But you know what they say, one bad apple.

It's funny how all the lesbians attackers attack those who want males in female spaces.

And transwomen are male, btw, there is no 'protest', there is simply biology

but pick your arguments and battles. M&S changing rooms is not really a space that needs protecting is it? No harm would really come to anyone in M&S changing rooms even if they were completely unisex because they have lockable cubicles and a high number of staff wandering round.

Why make genuine trans people suffer over this non issue? These are real human beings you are going to humiliate. These are real people who want to try on clothes but according to you dont look the way they should to be able to try on the clothing they want to in peace. I just dont agree that the people who are just trying to live their lives should be thrown under the bus due to activists on both sides arguing.

It's funny how all the lesbians attackers attack those who want males in female spaces.

That's not very nice is it, on many levels.

At the risk of being seen to "miss the point", could the underlying issues be merely circumvented in the case of changing rooms by mandatory minimum standards of security? Obviously it doesn't address any wider context, but would it be objectionable if it were taken on as a solution to this single issue? And if not, why not?

I just dont agree that the people who are just trying to live their lives should be thrown under the bus due to activists on both sides arguing.

I agree with this; I'm all up for practical, real-world solutions if they're available, rather than seeking to settle the debate.