M&S changing room policy

[iamawoman]

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

ratrolypoly because the issue isnt about security at all that just whats said to justify it. Its about not wanting transwomen to be accepted at all.

Id understand if this were an argument about a womens refuge etc

but when it comes to changing rooms I just think its a load of bullshit excuses to be angry about transwomen. Its a political point not one based in any practical concerns.

Whilst I think there are issues about self identification and the implications of that and I do agree they need to be discussed etc I just dont think that a big campaign over nothing, and one which hurts and humiliates transpeople is going to achieve anything for anyone.

None of this is nice Rat. We are being called bigots and hysterical idiots right left and centre for simply being concerned about our safety and privacy, or maybe you missed that bit?

Your solution is good. The TRAs would hate it however, because they want the validation of being with the 'gurls'. And who is going to pay for all this? What about the communal changing rooms in sports facilities , locker rooms etc. ?

Wind You are right that the individual cubicles is a smaller issue, but the TRAs don't want this, they want access to all women's spaces, end of.

There's no problem to a move towards unisex changing rooms...

... provided those changing rooms have floor to ceiling walls and lockable doors, and are large enough for customers to be able to see themselves in all views without exiting into a communal area.

At the point shops are willing to invest the millions upon millions of pounds to sufficiently safeguard women and girls using their changing rooms against voyeurs and worse, I will be against them.

Simples.

Interesting. I haven’t rtft but I had the opposite experience with M&S - I am a biological female, gender non conforming person and was buying a men’s suit for my wedding - would have been around May last year. Great, professional service, and I was politely directed to the women’s changing rooms to try on my waistcoat and trousers - as I would expect. The men’s are for male bodies, not masculine clothes.

I wonder if this policy only applies to people who want access to the women’s changing room?

One of my close friends is a transwoman and ive known her snce we were teenagers. Luckily for her shes traditionally attractive, young and has been taking hormones for a long time so generally her gender is never questioned. Ive never had any problems in getting into changing rooms and toilets with her. But it would be so horrific if we had. How upsetting for her, and really its her who is put in most danger as I think mens reactions to her when they realised someone has deemed her to be a man and sent her to their changing rooms or toilets is not going to be good. I know amongst male friends of ours who find out, even some of the guys who I had thought to be decent guys, react with disgust and anger towards her. None of our female friends react like this.

So when I hear about campaigns like this I think the real danger is to trans people from men, not sis people.

We are being called bigots and hysterical idiots right left and centre for simply being concerned about our safety and privacy, or maybe you missed that bit?

I've heard it talked about a lot on here, but I've never myself seen it. Perhaps because I'm not on Twitter.

If women's safety in changing rooms is such an issue Lang shouldn't we be obliging shops to spend that money anyway?

@windchimesabotage M&S changing rooms is not really a space that needs protecting is it? No harm would really come to anyone in M&S changing rooms even if they were completely unisex because they have lockable cubicles and a high number of staff wandering round.

I know when I was younger (and more svelte and fashion conscious!) I would often go shopping with friends and we would try stuff on. One of us would often nip out, half-dressed/wrapping a garment round us to ask waiting mates for a different item/size. No point getting all fully dressed just to get re-undressed multiple times.

And then we'd come out and scrutinise ourselves in the full length mirrors invariably fitted at the end of the changing room 'corridor'. We'd turn this way and that and giggle and gossip about boys and how it looked and our bums and all the other myriad little things you do as young women with your mates. We felt free to do all that because we were SAFE in those changing rooms.

Can you honestly not understand how the sudden intrusion of men into that mix of women (young, old, disabled, able-bodied, religious, whatever) will completely change things? "No harm"? Riiiight.

assigned but TRAs are actually a very very small minority of trans people. Most trans people just want to live their lives without hassle and that involves using the changing facilities that they feel safest in.

Like i said I think its a case of picking battles not just having a general outcry. Even if you dont believe that trans women are women they are still a group who is at risk of violence from men so they cant just be shoved in the male spaces. Equally transmen are quite at risk from violence from men.

I think we should all be pushing for well staffed unisex changing rooms with lockable floor length doors and I dont really see why that isnt achievable?

The danger to women and trans people is from men so policies that allow men who say they are women into safe spaces put everyone at risk.

A third, gender neutral option would keep everyone happy.

What I mean to say lang is we're not the financial managers of these shops. Our objection to unisex changing rooms or transwomen using the ladies can't be "they can't come in because then shops would have to spend more money keeping us safe".

@windchimesabotage Its about not wanting transwomen to be accepted at all.

One question. Can you please describe what you understand to be a transwoman/what they have experienced or undertaken to live that life?

Because I have a sneaking suspicion you are thinking of something very different to the type of person actually being discussed.

Why make genuine trans people suffer over this non issue? These are real human beings you are going to humiliate.

When you say genuine trans people do you mean gay men?

shotsfired so you want to humiliate some people and put them at risk of male violence so you can behave just as you used to as a young girl? riiiight

A third, gender neutral option would keep everyone happy.

What about a single, unisex option with adequate security?

terfinater no that was in response to people saying that men could just say they were trans in order to come and perv on women.

Im not sure what you mean by equating that to 'gay men' tbh?

In case anyone else wishes to ask M&S questions:

Mr Steve Rowe
Chief Executive
[email protected]

Why should your life experience be laid bare to explain to someone APAB? You shouldn't have to do this to explain why you don't like it. Those who ask you to explain should hang their heads in shame.

I sincerely would not have an issue with floor-to-ceiling cubicles with, enough space and mirrors to adequately view oneself.

Which I think might blow a hole in your argument that this is about trans-people windchimesabotage

So can we just agree, no one in their right mind, least of all feminists, are persecuting a marginalised minority of men, for the sake of it.

I honestly couldn't have less interest in the workings of the trans ideology. Genuinely.

The only reason any feminist is looking at prison statistics, crime patterns, fetishes, puberty blockers, is because how they are impacting on the rights and autonomy of women and children.

If, tomorrow, everybody assumed the protocols that have worked fine up to now. Access to spaces on a courtesy basis, with the terms dictated by women. And the issue not being politicised in any way, I would never read about the trans ideology or transwomen ever again. I have zero interest in it.

This is about women.

*RatRolyPoly Fri 02-Feb-18 11:40:23

I agree with this; I'm all up for practical, real-world solutions if they're available, rather than seeking to settle the debate*

A third gender neutral space is a fine solution. There aren't that many TIMs/TIFs at the moment, so one or two cubicles will be plenty. And my thought is that a whole load in one section of any store will be set aside so they will have way more cubicles than needed. Then any woman or man who cares not about the whole thing can also use GN spaces.
I suspect that they would go mostly unused by anyone as "passing" is important to TIMs/TIFs, an entire section of women won't take the chance, including me, and men won't want to either be accused of anything or used to validate.

I think terfinater is saying is that the people we would know as transwomen are in fact gay men, windchime. Lovely.

For instance if transgenderism was considered a third option.

Their own rights, and changing rooms, their own system.

And women maintain their own system.

@windchimesabotage shotsfired so you want to humiliate some people and put them at risk of male violence so you can behave just as you used to as a young girl? riiiight

No. I want to protect every other woman who might want privacy to try on clothes and check out their bodies without having dodgy people staring at them and getting who knows what kicks off it. If that upsets TRAs, oh well.

@windchimesabotage terfinater no that was in response to people saying that men could just say they were trans in order to come and perv on women.

That is exactly what the new risk of self-id is, and why we are not happy about it!

I'm fine with mixed changing rooms as long as they're supervised and have lockable doors. Unsupervised changing rooms or those with just curtains are too open to abuse.

Does windchimes think that people who are young girls now don't exist, or..?

Individual changing rooms with big mirrors would make everyone except TRAs happy, so maybe those who're currently insisting that women shut up about our objections to trans women in the women's changing rooms should get to work on lobbying M&S and other stores to make that happen. Good luck dealing with all the TRAs who'll call you transphobic when you suggest it!

The only reason any feminist is looking at prison statistics, crime patterns, fetishes, puberty blockers, is because how they are impacting on the rights and autonomy of women and children.

That being the case Datun couldn't we all just be campaigning for new solutions to these newly arising problems, rather than insisting that "everything's fine just the way it's always been and nothing needs to change", because some people clearly do think it needs to change. And rather than arguing the toss with them, isn't there some progressive solution in each of these scenarios?

I have literally no idea if trans is "real", I frankly couldn't care less, but if society is going in a particular way that I feel makes women unsafe I'm all up for finding new ways to fix that, rather than trying to "stop the rock" so to speak.