M&S changing room policy

[iamawoman]

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

To be honest, I don't understand why large stores such as M&S can't just convert one of their many, many changing rooms into a gender-neutral changing room. That way there's a 'third-space' for those who are comfortable changing in a mixed-gender/mixed-sex environment.

I think there should eventually be a policy where organisations above a certain size have to create gender neutral spaces IN ADDITION to male and female spaces.

To be honest I'd be more comfortable changing around a homosexual than a transwoman.

But some people wouldn't; some people would feel like a lesbian seeing them naked would necessarily be sexualising their body - which is of course bull, but hey, if someone is sexualising your body there isn't anything you can do about it! Should they have to feel that way? I personally think they should, because the issue is theirs and not the other person's

Because homosexuals are not getting off on forcing me to validate them.

Hmm, not sure, not sure I think someone feeling validated by your being there is forcing you to validate them. Not sure you aren't overthinking that. I'm also not sure being annoyed or uncomfortable with someone "getting off" on something is a good enough reason to impose restrictions on the other person to prevent it. I mean sure, don't want someone to lust after your body, cover it up, but you can't poke their eyes out.

Has anyone really been in close contact with a women who you mistakenly thought was a man? The whole point of making changing rooms trans friendly is because it is so, so difficult to pass as the opposite sex.

Assigned I was just paraphrasing a pp as her question was unanswered.

I'd prefer not to be 'looked over' in a 'gaze' or 'sexual sense' by women either, but to the best of my knowledge, this is incredibly rare and has certainly never happened to me - waits for that poster who always mentions being hit upon by lesbians when naked and other similar fantasies.

But why would they look at you in a sexual sense, or hit on you??

"but hey, if someone is sexualising your body there isn't anything you can do about it! Should they have to feel that way? I personally think they should, because the issue is theirs and not the other person's"

So people of any sex, sexual orientation should be allowed to go into any space and perv on anyone? Good to know where you are at Rat. At least we have established that.

Has anyone really been in close contact with a women who you mistakenly thought was a man?

I know several women with pronounced facial hair as a result of polycystic ovaries, and whilst to me they're clearly women I've seen people assert otherwise; one woman in particular.

I'm also not sure being annoyed or uncomfortable with someone "getting off" on something is a good enough reason to impose restrictions on the other person to prevent it. I mean sure, don't want someone to lust after your body, cover it up, but you can't poke their eyes out.

Your nice reasonable oh I just want people to explain this to me mask is slipping, Rat.

The whole point of making changing rooms trans friendly is because it is so, so difficult to pass as the opposite sex.

Then introduce it into men's changing rooms. Let them be the arbiters of being nice and friendly to transwomen.

There are already shops in the UK that have unisex changing rooms - French connection is one that comes to mind as I was there recently, and I’m sure they aren’t the odd ones out.

Come to think of it, I don’t recall seeing a female sign outside a changing room in any high street shops - they tend to position them in the respective clothing sections so generally it’s self selective, but I always assumed anyone could go in any changing room in the store if the others were busy. Also what if a shop only has one changing room but sells both men’s and women’s clothes?

So people of any sex, sexual orientation should be allowed to go into any space and perv on anyone

That's not what I said. I said I think it goes without saying that non-trans people of any sexual orientation would use the changing room associated with their sex. And that until we can police people's thoughts, "perving" is neither here nor there. Do you not think that??

But why would they look at you in a sexual sense, or hit on you

They wouldn't. That was the point. I thought you were referring to this possibility in your original post.

Or offer a third space where nobody has to worry about passing or their privacy being violated because it's explicitly labelled as being gender neutral, and maintain women's and men's rooms for the people who want them.

But you don't think bodily autonomy is a right for anyone, Rat? If anyone is uncomfortable with it, too bad?

A third space wouldn't be good enough for some transpeople though. They would still try to get into the changing room they 'identify' with and kick off when they're told they're not allowed.

Your nice reasonable oh I just want people to explain this to me mask is slipping, Rat.

Angry I'm clearly in this for the discussion - I want to understand but I'm not one to simply swallow what I'm being told without questioning it. So if I don't agree, I ask. Not sure quite what you're taking me to task on to be honest, but I'm not surprised you are. I'm not falling into line quick enough I suppose; guess it's all those years of not simply doing what I'm told by men.

Oh, I know, but if it's offered and they refuse it then they're making their true goals very clear. And the response should then be, well, there's a space that's been made available for you, if you choose not to use it that's not the store's problem.

"Then introduce it into men's changing rooms. Let them be the arbiters of being nice and friendly to transwomen."

And expect men to validate TIM? - that's women's work.

Nice try, Rat, but you made your views on women's right to have boundaries just a little too clear this time.

Sorry Rat, but my POV is that your questions simply are not clearly phrased or articulated.

But you don't think bodily autonomy is a right for anyone, Rat? If anyone is uncomfortable with it, too bad? What? Of course bodily autonomy is a right

mostimproved I guess those shops have made all their changing rooms unisex, right? So not a "third" space, but a single space in effect?

Do what you like with that Yet, don't answer them, ask for clarification, whatever you like. I'm not the boss of you.

Okay Angry, if you like.

I do believe that if there is a gender-neutral space available, then companies should legally be allowed to turn away non-gender-conforming individuals from segregated 'womens' and 'mens' bathrooms or changing areas.

Because:

1. it's not like the needs of non-gender-conforming are not being met and
2. companies have a duty of care towards every individual. Victims of sexual abuse, or those who for religious reasons cannot show their body in front of members of the other sex should feel comfortable too.

I'll be extremely angry if this gender-inclusive legislation leads to the end of women's hour at the swimming pool (or similar initiatives), because for some women this is the ONLY time that they can access these facilities. I'm all for inclusivity, but there needs to be consideration for all parties involved, trans or otherwise.

TIM claim to need to be in the women changing room because:

• they are women too, so have a right to be there. and/or
• they are simply not safe the men's.

So the first is about changing the definition of women and validation, the second is about male violence/behaviour. We are told the believe that only TIM are at risk from male behaviour, and women's concerns are unfounded.

An emoticon is not an answer Rat.

How can anyone have bodily autonomy if they are forced to change where they are not comfortable to accommodate men who say they are women?

I get changed in front of women every day at my gym. Some of them are certainly lesbians.

The key difference is that I don't go about my life being frightened of random lesbians coming on to be, which has never happened, funnily enough. Or attacking me. (And on the off chance it happened, I would at least stand a chance of fighting her off)

I also do not go about my life inviting advances and intrusive comments from men, but it happens, even now. All the fucking time. When I am fully dressed and look like a hedgerow. So the last fucking thing I need is to be undressed in front of them

I do go about my life taking precautions so minimise the chances of random predators attacking me. Because I have been. This includes where I walk, what time I go home at, etc.

It would be simply reckless and careless of my self to get changed in front of males.

It's that bloody simple

OK Rat, I won't! I tried and obviously failed, so ...