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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is "cis" the future ?

238 replies

matt1978 · 01/02/2018 04:43

I will admit to being new to the topic and still reading but many threads on here have lead me to further reading. I don't think I've ever bothered with the whole feminist thing until now when I see it being threatened by the trans agenda. Im starting to now feel much more protective about women's rights perhaps it's because I'm older or perhaps in my lifetime there's never been a threat to it ? I'm fearful to say even that for being accused of transphobia and I have no issue at all with anyone living their life as they wish - but I have a daughter and am now fearful for the future - will she have safe women only spaces ? Possibly not. Will she have to call herself a cis woman rather than just a woman ?
I dislike the agenda that you cannot debate or disagree or you're a bigot . It seems so backwards and confusing
I feel ignorant about what's going on out there and would love some insight from better informed posters here .

OP posts:
hesterton · 02/02/2018 07:26

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hesterton · 02/02/2018 07:57

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SameTerfDifferentUserName · 02/02/2018 08:01

Datun recently on twitter two transwoman described how they 'knew' they were really women. Basically they felt sad anxious and depressed about being male so decided to opt out.

Women are not failed men therefore failed men are not Women, suggesting that this is the case is misogyny. Failed men are certainly not my or my daughters problem and we will be keeping our rights.

One of the 'transwoman' then told the other one off for saying 'transwoman' and not 'trans woman' as apparently this is 'othering' and 'she' is a real woman. You REALLY couldn't make this shit up.

Quite frankly a lot of these 'trans activists' are already the wrong side of a psychotic break and the trans community need to sort their own issues out, again they are not my problem.

Twitter is overrun with mentally ill and/or misogynistic men flying the trans flag under the Labour banner. Again this is not my problem though it will most certainly be labours come the next GE if they don't sort it out.

I am absolutely done being polite about this.

Flowers Curry, podge anyone else lurking I'm really sorry you're having to read that and it's not aimed at you.

Motorcyclelife01 · 02/02/2018 08:28

@Laine01

We're not saying we're transphobic or bigots(i know i certainly ain't!) but don't we deserve the right to request what healthcare professional we want and everything where we can guarantee they're biologically male or female?
I'm not saying trans people can't be who they want they can its their life! But i know i wouldn't be comfortable around someone who was still biologically the other sex.

I myself have sexually assaulted and emotionally abused by 2 women in the past so i can go for male healthcare providers(its just what i'm comfortable with) but i wouldn't want that male healthcare provider to of been biologically female as it would still make me very uncomfortable. Just as it would for a rape survivor to get someone biologically male or someone going for a smear test who's very self conscious or just wants a female to deal with their well female anatomy.

ShotsFired · 02/02/2018 08:59
  1. Male HCP: Is a qualified medical practitioner. But is also a man, knows he is a man, doesn't claim to have experience of womanhood or the reality of menstruation, or the "option" (ha) to be raped, get pregnant, bear children etc.

  2. Female HCP: Is a qualified medical practitioner. But is also a woman, knows she is a woman, does have experience of womanhood or the reality of menstruation, or the "option" (ha) to be raped, get pregnant, bear children.

  3. The new breed of TRA Transwoman HCP: Male doctor: Is a qualified medical practitioner. But is also a man, knows he is a man, yet still claims to have experience of womanhood or the reality of menstruation, or the "option" (ha) to be raped, get pregnant, bear children etc

  4. and 2) are both perfectly acceptable to walk in the room and treat you. It is perfectly reasonable to request/expect one or other other out of simple preference or circumstance.

  5. is deceptive and disingenuous, and is using the "protection" of the trans label to get patients to go along in their fantasy world whatever their discomfort or disinclination. Not acceptable, and certainly contravening the founding medical principle of "first, do no harm".

Datun · 02/02/2018 09:11

SameTerfDifferentUserName

Datun recently on twitter two transwoman described how they 'knew' they were really women. Basically they felt sad anxious and depressed about being male so decided to opt out.

Exactly. It's so insulting to be told that a woman is defined by nothing more than the lack of being a man.

I do, however, realise that it should be unsurprising.

The more you read, the more you realise quite how blind men are to the lives of women and see women only in relation to themselves.

And, of course, there are also many women who see themselves in that way.

Both sexes are socialised towards it from the word go.

It's quite hard to critique your own socialisation. To decide whether your mindset is purely a result of who you are, or the way you have lived - absorbing, on a subliminal level, everything that society tells you.

On a different note.

The other thing about this issue, which appears to consistently remain the elephant in the room, is quite how many TIMs have autogynephilia.

It's one thing for a woman to assert that she doesn't mind a man giving her a smear test.

It's quite another to realise that the female presenting man might be fetishising her biology whilst he does it.

There are numerous accounts of men who are in a position of trust in terms of healthcare, doctors, surgeons, etc, who use their position to sexually assault women.

They are regularly reported in mainstream press.

It's entirely understandable that women might prefer a female HCP. Statistically, they are incredibly unlikely to be a sex offender.

As are most male doctors. But it's a question of odds. And reducing them.

Knowing that a large cohort of TIMs have a fetish about women's biology, ups the ante in a way that is wholly unacceptable.

SameTerfDifferentUserName · 02/02/2018 10:56

Preaching to the converted here Datun I entirely agree with every word you write. I'd write it myself I'm just not as articulate.

Datun · 02/02/2018 11:15

I know SameTerfDifferentUserName.

I didn't intend to make it look like I was teaching my grandmother to suck eggs. Not that I think you're my grandmother...

I'm aware that not everyone gets it, and sometimes I write with lurkers in mind. Smile

Beachcomber · 02/02/2018 11:37

People like Laine should be aware that stating "transwomen are women" is the equivalent of saying "I don't know how babies are made".

It makes one appear to others as either extremely ignorant or, more likely, extremely brainwashed.

There is a 3rd option of extremely misogynistic. That is one knows perfectly well how babies are made and that TIMs are not women but one is happy to lie in order to support a woman hating woman erasing ideology.

SameTerfDifferentUserName · 02/02/2018 11:53

I know Datun keep preaching! I'm a lurker you (and others) got through to.

SameTerfDifferentUserName · 02/02/2018 11:55

My current thinking is that anybody who thinks whether I'm male or female is up for debate and not a morally neutral biological fact has in fact suffered a psychotic break and should be dealt with accordingly. It is neither kind nor helpful to these people (or anybody else) to engage in these delusions. The truth will set you free.

Italiangreyhound · 02/02/2018 12:43

@stoneagefertilitydoll

"If cis is the future then I am a transwoman- because I've read both definitions, and that's the one I fit.

Of course in my, sex based world, I'm just a woman, because I don't believe that my sex is based on a soul rather than my body,and I don't believe 'woman' should suggest anything other than adult, human, female"

Still reading the thread but this jumped out from page one. I hope self-identification of gender does not happen bit if it does can women self-identify as trans men, (maybe non-binary trans men)? Then get funding for socials, meet ups and activism, and legitimately meet without any males present?

I think self-identification of gender will massively hurt women, girls and trans people; so although I am making light of it, I do feel it will be a massive detrimental issue for many.

So they trial it, will they record stats? I think the supposed need to be further identified as 'cis' is just one aspect of this crazy situation. It is hurting genuine transsexuals as well.

Anyway am still reading the thread but just wanted to say that.

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 02/02/2018 13:51

It's not the future for me because I don't meet the definition. I have no innate gender identity and I've loathed my body ever since I hit puberty. Okay I'm currently wearing a dress but that's because I'm pregnant and can't find any trousers which are comfortable. If "womanhood" is no longer rooted in biology, I'm not a woman because why on earth would I choose to identify as what has essentially been the root of all my problems. Patronized, patted on the head, groped, raped, told I can't possibly like "x" (virtually everything I enjoy) because I'm a girl, turned down for promotion because I might be planning on having a baby (although it was crouched in much more acceptable language until my ex-boss got drunk at his leaving do and told me the truth). Ever since I turned 11 or so, I've had to deal with abusive adult men because of my biology. Men who blamed me, who called me "jail-bait" and "Lolita" when my age was pointed out but getting older hasn't made it any better. Pregnancy makes me feel as sexy as a three week washed up whale carcass but apparently there are plenty of men out there who find that a turn on.

As for health care providers, when I had my son when it came obvious that a midwife wasn't going to cut it, they offered to wake up a woman consultant and page a woman anesthetist from the main hospital complex rather than force a rape survivor to endure two male Doctors. As it happened, I wanted my son born and safe asap so told them to get on with it but imagine saying okay no men because of trauma and then getting a trans woman. Interestingly enough, those two Drs double checked and triple checked every time they touched me, told me over and over again to tell them if I wasn't comfortable, if I needed a break, if I wanted a midwife in theater to put the monitor things on my chest, if they could do anything to make me feel safer because they knew it wasn't about them. I've met a few Trans women I don't believe would be capable of reaching that conclusion.

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 13:59

There is a 3rd option of extremely misogynistic. That is one knows perfectly well how babies are made and that TIMs are not women but one is happy to lie in order to support a woman hating woman erasing ideology.

YY. I think that stance describes 99% of "progressive" male allies, certainly.

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 14:01

Datun recently on twitter two transwoman described how they 'knew' they were really women. Basically they felt sad anxious and depressed about being male so decided to opt out.

I have had this conversation with several who say the same.

Women are not failed men therefore failed men are not Women, suggesting that this is the case is misogyny. Failed men are certainly not my or my daughters problem and we will be keeping our rights.

Absolutely agree.

newyearsameme80 · 02/02/2018 14:07

I often feel like a failed adult so maybe I should identify as a teenager again.

Italiangreyhound · 02/02/2018 15:01

@Dinosauratemydaffodils I'm sorry for all the experiences you've suffered. I just wanted to say your explanation is amazingly insightful and the two make doctors a credit to the profession. Flowers

Italiangreyhound · 02/02/2018 15:02

male doctors...

Italiangreyhound · 02/02/2018 15:05

@Datun "My advice would be to always look under the surface of what people say"

I am sorry to sound simpering, but you are always so wise. I read about Laverne Cox and that prisoner. It's sickening.

LangCleg · 02/02/2018 15:49

Basically they felt sad anxious and depressed about being male so decided to opt out.

My friend basically says this. Also, they feel that the Blanchard typology is over-simplistic as they don't fit either the HSTS or AGP profiles. Rather, they had severe body dysmorphia and physical transition provided a relief from this. If you asked my friend, they would say that they know that they are not a woman but they don't feel like a man any more either. Happiness came eventually when they found the self acceptance to acknowledge that there is a third, perfectly authentic, way to be in the world.

And I think most of we feminists here on this site, are truly accepting of that - even to the extent, in many, although not all scenarios, of accepting such folk into our spaces.

The problem is that the movement for social acceptance for this very vulnerable but also very tiny population has been hijacked by a bunch of vicious and violent misogynist cross-dressing fetishist MRAs. That people in power cannot see this, that the hare-brained liberal feminists can't see this, and that TPTB are going to great lengths to prevent the wider population from seeing this - THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Datun · 02/02/2018 16:28

My friend basically says this. Also, they feel that the Blanchard typology is over-simplistic as they don't fit either the HSTS or AGP profiles. Rather, they had severe body dysmorphia and physical transition provided a relief from this. If you asked my friend, they would say that they know that they are not a woman but they don't feel like a man any more either. Happiness came eventually when they found the self acceptance to acknowledge that there is a third, perfectly authentic, way to be in the world.

I haven't read Blanchard for ages, but how does your friend's experience differ from what he said? Is it because your friend doesn't fit the homosexual transsexual category, because he's not homosexual?

I'm not disputing what your friend says. I just can't immediately see the difference.

SameTerfDifferentUserName · 02/02/2018 16:31

I do agree LangCleg and I'm not without sympathy but when you have labour officials publicly stating this sort of shit, I feel pushed to take a very hard line.

DodoPatrol · 02/02/2018 16:33

I think I can.

If someone is attracted to women (or at least not attracted to men), but not turned on by the thought of themself as a woman, that would be a third category.

And probably called panromantic ace transgender or something by someone under 25.

SameTerfDifferentUserName · 02/02/2018 16:34

Dodo I would laugh but I think that's possibly an actual term!

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 16:36

I've definitely come across young trans people who claim to be "ace".

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