Is "cis" the future ?

[matt1978]

I will admit to being new to the topic and still reading but many threads on here have lead me to further reading. I don't think I've ever bothered with the whole feminist thing until now when I see it being threatened by the trans agenda. Im starting to now feel much more protective about women's rights perhaps it's because I'm older or perhaps in my lifetime there's never been a threat to it ? I'm fearful to say even that for being accused of transphobia and I have no issue at all with anyone living their life as they wish - but I have a daughter and am now fearful for the future - will she have safe women only spaces ? Possibly not. Will she have to call herself a cis woman rather than just a woman ?
I dislike the agenda that you cannot debate or disagree or you're a bigot . It seems so backwards and confusing
I feel ignorant about what's going on out there and would love some insight from better informed posters here .

Also maybe worth saying, most people think 'transwoman' and think post op transsexual. This is not what transwoman means today and indeed not many trans people have any kind of surgeries and such anyway, they just declare themselves the opposite sex and apparently thats it and they should have the rights of the opposite sex.

Laine01 Thu 01-Feb-18 15:36:58
I never said women can't have women only spaces i am all for women only spaces i just don't see why transgender people can't have their place in this world too without being blamed.

You asked what harm it would do to women to let men who say they are women use their spaces and services.
I asked why they couldn't have their own.

I'm not sure how you get blaming out of that. No one is blaming. We just want to keep the services we need.
We cant do that if men can say they are actual, biological women.

I never said women can't have women only spaces i am all for women only spaces i just don't see why transgender people can't have their place in this world too without being blamed.

Wonderful. Me too. And for that matter I think prison should be safe for everyone; trans, gay, sex offenders, everyone. But I would still keep people with penises and people with vaginas housed separately. Do you agree with that?

Thank you for all the replies and links which I'll read. In response to Laine I think others have already said it but I'll also repeat that I also fully support the rights of all people, but don't understand why it has to be at the expense of or indeed instead of, the rights of others. Hope that makes sense

Basically, your right to swing your arms around ends at my nose.

Honestly, I don’t think trans women who have no intention of transitioning shouldn’t get to use women’s services. But I think fully transitioned women should. I dunno what that makes me.

An enormous TERF unfortunately. It's where most of us came from.

CatsPaws like all of us here, it sounds like you are not against transsexual or indeed transgender people at all. We are concerned about the impact of the new GRA (gender recognition act) proposals which allows any person to self identify as the opposite gender on a whim. "Transitioning" is about to become meaningless as transition will begin and end as soon as the person has the idea, and could be as simple as wearing a dress or calling themselves Danielle instead of Daniel. Do you mean surgery (which only 15% of trans identified males undergo)?

The irony is, transsexuals (or "truscum" as many transactivists call them) have been quietly using women's loos etc for years. This.movement is as damaging to them as it is to women.

Sweetheart yeah, I mean people who have surgery and/or at least live as and make the attempt to live as a woman.

Danielle Muscato, for example, shouldn’t be allowed to use the women’s bathroom but I’d have no issue with Laverne Cox using it. Does that make sense?

It just takes women repeating 'no'. That is increasingly becoming my view on this whole mess. My whole answer comes down to "No. And stop being so damn silly ." Anyone who calls me cis is going to be asked very clearly to stop it, and I bet I'm better equipped on the subject than they are if they want me to explain why. When other women see women confidently rejecting this labelling/box/ please sir may I have another bullshit they will do the same.

The average person in the street won't play these silly word games or swallow the concepts, they won't expend the high effort it takes to engage with TRA language and logic, they won't waste their time massaging egos and propping up other people's subjective fantasies as superior to their own reality. The only reason the women here play along enough to engage with it is because of the interest in feminism and women's rights in the light of it, plus many here have an interest in the pathology and psychology of it all. If this goes far enough to ever really get into the public eye (and public changing rooms, and public hospital wards) there won't be pandering to the AGP swinging his dick and smirking at someone's mum or daughter. There will be a whole lot of very ugly scenes and a massive backlash.

Incidentally if 'cis' ever really took off, then that would be the next target to appropriate. You think women would be allowed 'cis women bathrooms' or 'cis women hospital wards'?

Incidentally if 'cis' ever really took off, then that would be the next target to appropriate. You think women would be allowed 'cis women bathrooms' or 'cis women hospital wards'?

Of course they wouldn't be allowed. It would be transphobic and all of a sudden 'transwomen' would be actual 'cis women'. Infact some already describe themselves as cis women, or even biological women

While at the same time you see t shirts with 'die cis scum'.

No.

The whole ruddy government need training in cluster B personalities and working with them. And then training in the use of 123 Magic.

TheCatsPaws wrote - "Can someone explain the anger at cis? I have no strong feelings on it, and generally ascribe to let people be. "

"Cis" is deliberately designed by supporters of transgenderism to promote "trans" to the top of the trans / non-trans hierarchy. "Cis" is not equal and opposite to "trans". Trans is set up as being the purest expression (perhaps even the only true expression) of gender non-conformity or gender discomfort, even though there are political alternatives to transgenderism e.g. gender-critical feminism.

"Cis" is used as a weapon against gender-critical people, particularly feminists, to minimise or ignore any discomfort these people may have about their assigned gender roles. It is not letting people be.

Women should reject the label of cis - even though i have 'been told' it just means the opposite of trans. Why should we be labelled something that means the opposite of a mental health / psychological condition or a sexual fetish or someone who isnt brave enough to be gender non conforming within their own sex.

Vesuvia do you have examples? I always thought it was the opposite to trans, like left and right, fast and slow.

I suspect that in future we will regard people not wanting to be called "cis" as we now regard people not wanting to be called "straight" (because they are just normal and we shouldn't need a word for it).

cis is supposed to mean that your gender identity matches your biological sex (and immediately that means you have 'privilege' over anyone whose doesn't. Enter the whole 'feminists must centre trans women' argument)

So the moment you use the word cis you buy into/ validate the politics there.

It also means you buy into the whole gender stereotypes thing if you feel your 'assigned gender identity' matches your biological sex. (ie if you have a vagina, do you like pink, long hair, high heels, are emotional and irrational, poor at parking and maths/science, please park your stereotypes and disempowerment of women here.)

I don't buy into gender stereotypes. I believe women come in a massive range of shapes, sizes, personalities, likes, dislikes, skills etc without any of those indicating a 'gender'.

So no, the 'assigned gender' associated with women does not to me equal people with vaginas, xx chromosomes and the capacity to gestate a child. I am not 'cis'.

And besides all that, to me its very rude to go around shoving labels on people to force them into boxes of my choice without consulting them first.

unicorn thank you for a very detailed post about why cis is disliked.

You raise a good point about female stereotypes - what does being a woman actually feel like? I wouldn’t know because I consider myself a person, and each woman is different from another.

I can see why it’s disliked.

That's my issue. If trans denotes rejecting the gender nonsense attached to your sex, cis denotes accepting the gender nonsense, which I most certainly do not.

I think a lot of women fall into the 'how much of this bullshit do I have to perform to fit in?' versus 'how harmful is this bullshit to me and mine'. So I shave my pits and sit with my legs together, not because I want to but because I know it would cause me problems if I didn't. I didn't take DH's name because it causes no issues. I like quilting and cooking so that's a gimme. I also like cars and beer but that's OK because it's 'cute' when women like cars and beer. I'm loud and opinionated because although it causes me problems, it is also very important to me. And on and on.

If some men want to simper and wear dresses and make-up, more power to them. But that is certainly not what causes female oppression; the performance of gender roles, so stop saying cis is a privilege and stop pretending trans women are the 'most oppressed women'. Because they simply aren't.

Terry I actually completely agree with that.

I have no issues with trans women but your explanation makes sense and it’s very unfair to claim “cis women” are privileged when they have to deal with sexist crap their entire lives.

The more I think about this the more I dislike it.

We are told that cis means having a gender identity that matches your sex.

1. To adopt the word 'cis' involves a tacit acceptance of the concept of 'gender identity' in the first place. This is the idea that it is possible to 'feel like' a man, woman, something inbetween or something else entirely, without any reference to one's physical sex or to sex roles or stereotypes. Gender identity is supposed to be an immutable internal essence that we are all born with. It's a faith based assertion for which there is no evidence - like souls.

2. The feminist understanding of gender is all the sex roles and stereotypes that are imposed on people because of their sex. It's a hierarchy with women and girls at the bottom. To say we are cis is to say we are comfortable with our own oppression.

3. To adopt the word 'cis' is to tacitly accept that there are two sorts of women - trans and cis, i.e. that transwomen are a subset of women as opposed to a subset of men. So we get 'transwomen are women' and all the problems that result from that.

x posted with a few there

Many PPs have already covered why I utterly reject the term "cis".

It is also used as a snide way of framing cunty people (whoever coined that term, here's to you!) as the oppressor class over TIMs.

Following this logic a woman or girl who has experienced FGM/ can't attend school because there are no toilet facilities/ is subject to child marriage/ is sent to prison for having an abortion etc, etc, etc is
more privileged than the likes of Caitlyn Jenner/ Jennifer Pritzker or indeed any other white western TIM.

It is a load of cuntybollocks imao.

Apologies if I've Xposted, that'll teach to read the full thread!

Thanks everyone. You’ve all explained it really well, and I definitely understand why it’s not a pleasant term. Cheers.