Transgender and womens spaces

[mummybear701]

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

So the women who are least able to speak out have finally been silenced and you think thats a good thing?
Patriarchy to the left of me, misogyny to the right.

If trans people insist on using women only services instead of their own then the Tampon Tax has to be scrapped, and they can pay for it.

What a load of tripe. You've really drunk the kool aid haven't you OP. Despite the numerous reports of women being assured by TIM everything's gonna be just fine

Assured? Assaulted.

One in eight TW assaulted at work?!!' Don't make me laugh. What about the one in three actual women assaulted at work, or don't they count?

Well I've read your stuff, have you taken off your glasses of prejudice to read the relevant threads on here?

As at the moment it seem you haven't. Because all your points are addressed in such threads. You could argue each of those points on those threads that are relevant to each point, maybe?

If all that were actually true, why are so many people would be concerned? I argued every one of these points with my DD last night - I'll take them one by one here, cos this could take a while.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women...... men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves.......if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

Currently, if a male-presenting person enters or attempts to a female space, they are often challenged. "'Scuse me, this is the ladies" or "sorry, sir, the gents is over there". Currently, if a male-presenting person is loitering in a female space, they can be confronted and asked to leave. This reduces the likelihood of men actually committing offences - so protecting women.
If spaces become unisex or segregated based on self-defined gender, that safeguard is removed. The opportunity to challenge and confront is removed. Yes, a woman who is assaulted is protected by law - but why in earth is society proposing to remove the provision put in place to protect women becoming victims in the first place?

Oh and may I point out that for decades, women have shared space with transsexual women in toilets.

What's changed is we are now being shouted at that we must/have to accept any person who says they are a woman.

The law getting changed in the US has made life a massive pain in the arse for Transsexuals.

So yeah well done to the Trans Activists who pushed so fucking hard for every type of man with a fetish for women's cloths to be acknowledged as a woman. Which Prompted the law to be changed.

The prison system

the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. ........People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners.

The problem with relying on an assessment of potential risk in this case is that if it's wrong, even once, then the consequences are extremely damaging, and can result in a pregnancy.

There is a good reason that prisoners are segregated into those who can impregnate, and those who are capable of being impregnated. Do you really think that Conception of a child in prison is acceptable in 21st century western society?

And what happens when space runs out in those high security units? Will the prison estate have to be expanded to provide sufficient accommodation for trans prisoners who are deemed a risk to others?

Mummybear I assume that you don't believe that we need sex segregation in any space then, as that is what self id will effectively mean? If a male just needs to say 'I'm a woman' on a form (or not even that in the case of toilets because no one would be challenge that in a public toilet so it wouldn't matter if they had filled in their form or not) , then that basically means any man can go into any sex segregated space, rendering the 'sex segregated' part meaningless.

So mixed sex toilets, prisons, rape crisis centres? Throw the male and female bodied in together and let's just see what happens eh? Sounds like a fun experiment

Ah... Scottish guidelines.
Are these the ones that suggest that parents don't need to know if their child comes out at school as transgender?
That suggest that social services should be contacted if parents are not totally supportive of random strangers discussing a 'below the age of consent' sex change with them?
That state that adults can have confidential conversations with children and not share them (breaking every single safeguarding rule about confidentiality ever)
That advocate young children accessing off label drugs that are likely to result in their ultimate sterilisation by the time they reach adulthood?

Hopefully all the authors of these have signed their names and organisations so that when the class actions begin as these poor children grow up, they know precisely who has promoted these unethical and dangerous practices .

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Men who abuse women go to great lengths to seek, find, and access the women who have fled their violence.
The organisations you refer to have all faced angry, violent ex-partners of the women that they are protecting at one time or another. They've also faced manipulative and charming ex-partners, who use guile and deception to bypass the protections in place.

Changes to the GRA will give those men the opportunity of greater access their victims - those organisations will be legally required to permit abusive men into their facilities if those men self-identify as women. These are men who have assaulted, manipulated, gaslighted and bullied women - do you really think they'd stop short of claiming to be a woman in order to gain access to their victim, which is what they want?

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on

Deliciously disingenuous. As is the article quoted.

Wow. How patronising are you?

What they said.

Op, if your post was supposed to convince me or reassure me, it has failed.

mummybear701

I honestly don't know where to start with your post. It's riddled with inaccuracies and things that aren't true.

There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault

It's right there no laws. And there are customs. And this is about to change those customs.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

This one always gets me. Claiming that transmen look like men and therefore women are struggling to identify the sexes. You think this shores up your argument! It doesn't, it shores up ours.

Not only does it show transgenderism up as a huge problem, it shows how relying on customs should absolutely be the norm. A masculine presenting woman would get the benefit of the doubt initially because it's customary that only female's use the female space. A man can be called out. But not if he is entitled to be there, based on self identification. It leaves women with no recourse. Zero.

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world.

How on earth do you know that? Self ID would have those crimes being reported as by women. Sneaky lil thing.

Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee

Great! Pee in the men's where there is a urinal to accommodate your anatomy.

Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men

Science disagrees. I'm tempted just to stop here. But I'm nothing if not dogged.

No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health

Another sneaky little bit of sleight of hand. You may not need GRC, and those without will be admitted on a case by case basis. But with a GRC you get automatic transfer.

Self ID will eliminate any case by case basis criteria.

In fact, we do not have self identification in this country, currently. You are not legally considered a woman without a gender recognition certificate. Approximately 1% of people who identify as trans have one.

That's less than 5000 people since they were originally issued 15 years ago.

If self identification goes through, 650,000 trans people will be able to legally become the opposite sex by filling out a form.

Instead of a handful of trans sex offenders going to female prisons. They will all go.

The equal opportunities act has sex as a protected characteristic. That means, women only shortlists are restricted to women, it is women who are protected by characteristic of sex. If your legal sex is that of a woman you have the same right. If your legal sex isn't, you don't.

Currently only 1% of trans-people have a legal sex that is different to their birth sex.

Because there is criteria, designed to ensure both, that they are making the right decision, and that piss takers aren't taking advantage.

Eliminating the criteria will allow exactly that. Piss taking on a mammoth scale.

Which has already started. Because the Labour Party consider that they are ahead of the law, which means they are breaking the law.

A law that was made for very good reason. Quite evidently, judging by how many people want it dismantled.

You need look no further than Lily Madigan to see how a law designed to help a handful of men navigate their life with gender dysphoria, has been exploited, at the expense of women, quite disgracefully.

no probs with a transgender male accessing rape crisis services, or any person for that matter. many probs with penis owners being in my therapy group for women or providing me with care whilst telling me they are in fact a woman. you know, cos a penis had a pretty big role in my rape what with the whole forced entry into my vagina and awkward resulting pregnancy bit. funnily enough i can't recall what my rapist was wearing but i was in a baggy tracksuit at the time.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

"Everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority." Well, apart from when they don't.

When a woman asks for a female HCP to carry out her smear test, and is then faced with a male-presenting person who claims they are a woman. That's not recognising patient well being as a priority.

When a vulnerable female adult in a care home requests that intimate care is carried out by someone of the same sex - but a male presenting carer, who self identifies as a woman assists her with showering. That's not recognising patient well being as a priority.

It does make a difference to non-trans people, specifically women. Transwomen are not women. They are men who wish to present themselves as women.

Not recognising the differences in people leads to the needs of different groups being homegenised and thus not recognised.

Women’s rights are eroded enough. Let transwomen be transwomen and tell men to treat them as equals to them. It’s men’s problems with men who present with what society classes as ‘feminine’ looks, clothing or preferred activities that causes these problems for transwomen. Not women!

Go preach elsewhere OP.

In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority.

Can you show me the evidence that most women don't mind being given a smear test by a man who thinks he's a woman?

Because when I last checked, the woman who did mind was faced with the insistence of the person in question that he was in fact a woman and was vilified by TAs across social media as being a biogot and a transphobe.

It's really disingenuous and treating women like idiots for you to claim that the NHS was the problem in this case.

is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it)
mummybear
I dont think you realise that 'self identification' is exactly that. It requires no paper work. Any man can say he is a woman and be legally entitled to enter womens spaces if this ammendment goes ahead.

Why are womens voices less important than mens voices?

Why are gender neutral third spaces not acceptable to trans people?

They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else.

You seem to be awfully confused about sex and gender. A trans person is welcome to any gender they want. The performance of sex role stereotypes can be as subjective as you like.

Unfortunately for your disingenuous way of writing, rights to protect women are based on their sex. Not their gender. Funny how it's all about gender, until the demands are made and then it's all about sex.

Other than a form

Any comments mummybear ?