Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender and womens spaces

279 replies

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 13:39

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
UpstartCrow · 29/01/2018 12:10

So go fight for a gender neutral third space/service, and everyone who feels comfortable can use that.

Its a win/win/win. So why wont you?

MorrisZapp · 29/01/2018 12:13

Exactly. Trans and non binary need their own spaces but it turns out they don't want that. They want access to ours.

rowdywoman1 · 29/01/2018 12:18

Mummybear
So you see 'dismissing it offhand' as silencing? Just as the transactivists see 'saying anything I disagree with or can't answer' as transphobic.
And where has anyone tried to shut down the debate on this thread? There are over 125 posts. That's not shutting down the debate, precisely the opposite. It really does appear as if you are reinterpreting facts to suit your own agenda which is very tedious as it then becomes impossible to have a mutually respectful debate - and is what this thread generally seems to have been - until you reappeared.

WouldntTouchItWithAShittyStick · 29/01/2018 12:19

Wow! I posted this to get some serious discussion though it degenerated into a bit more than that

Says the OP who posts once then fucks off instead of staying around for a discussion.

EggsonHeads · 29/01/2018 12:22

But surely a lot of the objections are towards the things you have listed already happening. Like women's only shortlists (I find them patronising and don't agree with them but bare with me). The greatest difficulties women have in competing with Lennon the work place arise from their biology; namely the fact that they can have children and breastfeed. This tends to lead to career breaks, employers who are wary of hiring women of a certain age, long term responsibilities arising out of early bias towards women doing the majority of childcare. There isn't really much of a point in putting transwomen on such shortlists because they're never going to have that problem. If anything defeats the purpose. Why would an employer choose a natal woman when they can have a token woman without any of the inconveniences women present?

EggsonHeads · 29/01/2018 12:23

*men in not Lennon

mummybear701 · 29/01/2018 12:26

Actually a 'third option' would make life much easier for these people, which is why trans girls were asked to use disabled toilet and changing for PE, still do afaik. The expense and logistics of them other than toilets (prisons etc.) put people off providing them. But this is the point - so many conflate declaration of gender with actual access to services, they are separate matters and always will be.

I support peoples right to dress as they want, use the name and even pronouns they want, have what hobbies/interests even if not typical of their assigned gender, all without judgement far less verbal of physical abuse, including children. The MN mantra seems to revolve around womens spaces or general equality for biological women - not the same and thats what I'm trying get across. We'll agree to differ.

I am also troubled people are still stating transwomen are men. This is sweeping and incorrect. Gender dysphoria is real and is serious.

OP posts:
Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 12:26

I also value hearing from you Pigeon It's very interesting.

I think I had i
body dysmorphia as a teen. I was terrified of growing breasts and hips, I hated the idea of having any body fat at all. My body just felt like a runaway train I wasn't in control of. I never felt anything like gender dysphoria, which must be horrible, but I would have loved my breasts to be surgically removed. It's taken 20 years of work to be comfortable in my skin and some days I'm still not 100% there in some ways (but i'd be horrified at the idea of losing my breasts now.) At the end of the day, I am so much better I intensely dislike teens being allowed to mutilate themselves. They really have no idea where life will take them and how they might end up feeling. I am just a world away from who I was.

2018username · 29/01/2018 12:31

Until fairly recently I was till working in 'old money' of transexuals/transvestites/drag queens and understood the deal was transexuals we were all kind to realised they'd probably had shitty life experiences and shared spaces transvestites/drag queens again no problem but they knew they were male and so did we, no shared spaces.

AGP's what are these? These appear to me to be a mixture of fetishists and paedophiles who we previously locked up if they committed a crime.

Why are they all lumped in together? There need to be legal distinctions.

I've always been aware of Greers view on 'men in dresses' and always thought 'hmmm well I see your point but it seems a bit mean'. Then I became aware of the safeguarding problems and realised I was going to have to act.

Having got involved I am coming across more and more people like podge who seem to be largely what I would call transsexual with the odd transvestite who seem as concerned as me! This isn't helping them.

podge I'm appalled you had to pay for your own therapy, MH provision in this country is a joke, the threshold appears to have moved to unless you're a danger to adult men we couldn't give a toss. Flowers

Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 12:32

Gender dysphoria is real and serious

I can't think you'll find anyone here disagreeing with you. That still doesn't mean anyone can change sex, I'm afraid

2018username · 29/01/2018 12:33

I support peoples right to dress as they want, use the name and even pronouns they want, have what hobbies/interests even if not typical of their assigned gender, all without judgement far less verbal of physical abuse, including children.

WTAF do you think the main point of the FWR board is???? Good God!

LangCleg · 29/01/2018 12:33

I am also troubled people are still stating transwomen are men. This is sweeping and incorrect. Gender dysphoria is real and is serious.

You can be as troubled as you like. It won't change the facts on the ground. Transwomen form a gender-variant subset of men. Gender dysphoris is real and it is serious but it isn't magic. It doesn't transform a man into a woman.

2018username · 29/01/2018 12:34

Massive bold fail there!

MorrisZapp · 29/01/2018 12:35

Oh hurrah! My body smells weird and I'm getting hair in embarrassing places. Can't wait for others to notice!

Said no adolescent, ever.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/01/2018 12:37

I'm also troubled people are still stating transwomen are men. This is sweeping and incorrect. Gender dysphoria is real and is serious.

Gender dysphoria is real. So are sexual dimorphism and sexually differentiated reproductive roles. So is current and historical systematic oppression of female people by male people. All of these realities need to be acknowledged if any consensus is to be reached.

I don't think people are saying that trans identified males are men, just that they're male. This is a biological fact which will not cease to be true just because it upsets someone.

NaturalWoman · 29/01/2018 12:37

I am also troubled people are still stating transwomen are men. This is sweeping and incorrect. Gender dysphoria is real and is serious

Those campaigning most vocally for trans rights are as disparaging of those with diagnosed gender dysphoria as they are of women.

There are many men. Fully intact, living as men, with the appearance of men, Men, who are not even bothering to put on a dress and are still claiming to self identify as women.

They are the problem. Amongst others.

Those men are not struggling with anything other than being told "no, that changing rom is not for you".

GoodyHemlock · 29/01/2018 12:43

People might then get into debates on what surgery/hormones etc. a transwoman has had and whether that has actually changed their sex, on a case by case basis.

No need for a case by case basis, you can't change sex. It's not physically possible.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 12:50

Many are at pains to distinguish sex and gender, so we could end up with a system where gender can be self id but singlesexservices continue to work on that basis

That makes no sense. What does that even mean? That's already how things work in that gender isn't real and lots of people dress however they want. Visit Brighton for the day or London. You'll spot a man with nail varnish at some point or eye make up or wearing heels. You are free to be the person you want to be.

TRA's specifically want access to female spaces which are segregated based on sex.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 12:54

But this is the point - so many conflate declaration of gender with actual access to services, they are separate matters and always will be.

But they might not always be if TRA's (and the Labour party) get their way. And you writing that goes totally against your own original post where you've quoted something which essentially says 'calm down dears. You women won't feel any negative effects at all for letting nice people with lady penises into your spaces.'

Which do you want? Safe, segregated spaces based on sex or spaces based on self-id? You're contradicting yourself.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 12:57

Womens sport - already exempt for reasons stated numerous times. Nothing will change here

I really don't mean to be rude but I'm not sure you've read very much about Trans rights. You're here trying to encourage everyone to get along without actually stopping to understand what's being said

Women's sport is already up shit creek. I cannot even imagine being a female athlete in 2018. There are women who have trained in their sports for years against a lot of odds and in some fields they'll know they can't ever reach the top of their game because of transathletes coming along and grabbing the top spots
This is only going to get worse over the next decade if things continue as they are.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 29/01/2018 12:59

I am also troubled people are still stating transwomen are men. This is sweeping and incorrect. Gender dysphoria is real and is serious.

Lets unpack that a little shall we. Firstly, what are your comments on these three lovely ladies?

Transgender and womens spaces
Transgender and womens spaces
Transgender and womens spaces
AllMyBestFriendsAreMetalheads · 29/01/2018 12:59

"Womens sport - already exempt for reasons stated numerous times. Nothing will change here."

OP, I don't understand this, and I didn't see it mentioned in your OP.

When you say 'nothing will change' does this mean you believe that men will continue to be able to take part in women's sport, as has already happened?

If so, I don't understand this part of your post at all.

"So Huntley or the sex offender case posted on the board, no they should never get a transfer."

As for this, I'm afraid this makes you as much of a terf as the rest of us.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 13:01

Toilets - there never has been a law on use but a man or transwoman identifiable as a man may get hostility using female facilities. Whether they self id or not will not change that.

This is depressingly naive.

Voyeuristic man sits in female toilets with his penis out

Scared woman usibg the facility with her young daughter calls the police to report him.

Voyeuristic man calmly says to a police officer 'sorry but I self id as a woman. I'm allowed to be here.'

Police are unable to take action.

Do you not get that?

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 29/01/2018 13:01

The MN mantra seems to revolve around womens spaces or general equality for biological women

Nothing to see here either.

Transgender and womens spaces
Transgender and womens spaces
2018username · 29/01/2018 13:04

Woman on the left, first photo. Face speaking for us all.