Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender and womens spaces

279 replies

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 13:39

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Datun · 27/01/2018 14:47

The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination

Transpeople are already protected from discrimination under the equality law.

On the basis of gender reassignment. (Not on the basis of a GRC, it's not necessary).

Women are protected under the same law on the basis of their SEX.

Do you really think that mumsnet is made up of a whole load of women with a lady brain who just don't get this?

Have you failed to notice the numerous scientists, biologists, endocrinologists, journalists, barristers, lawyers, politicians and transwomen on here?

ALunerExplorer · 27/01/2018 14:47

Hey OP. Thanks for posting this. Any article that doesn't employ ugly caricatures and tropes about hairy men in dresses and lipstick out to get us probably won't be well received - but anything calm, rational and reasonable about trans people is a pleasant and refreshing change.

Always nice to meet a fellow heretic however Grin

Datun · 27/01/2018 14:50

Am I the only one who thinks this is strikingly reminiscent of the 'transfriendly' thread?

There seems to be a fresh tactic from transactivists who suddenly think it might be original to try and patronise women into submission.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 14:53

Brilliant strategy, that, and it's already going so well!

PracticallyTerfectInEveryWay · 27/01/2018 14:56

So OP, help me out here.

When a bloke - but possibly a new fangled woman - wanders into the women's swimming pool changing room and flashes his/her penis at my daughter, how is my daughter to distinguish that this is a proper lady-penis and no problem at all, from a man pretending to be a woman in order to deliberately flash her?

It matters because if there's a new law in existence that means my daughter could be charged with a hate crime if she accidentally calls the police on a woman with a lady-penis, she's going to have to think very carefully about whether to report at all. Unlike now, where it's a no-brainer.

So, how is she, or how are any of us for that matter, to distinguish a genuine lady-penis with a right to be there from a flasher's dick?

UpstartCrow · 27/01/2018 14:57

The real effect of men in women's spaces is that men talk over women, men's rights override womens rights, and men erase women from public life.

You only have to look at sports, and countries that have weak equality laws to see how it pans out.

NewlyLaidTerf · 27/01/2018 15:00

That article basically says "Society has already started riding roughshod over women's rights and protections in a/b and c ways, (regardless of current laws or protections that are in place), for the benefit of some men. Ergo women shouldn't complain when society continues to ride roughshod over them and gets rid of the laws that offer them rights and protections, for the benefit of some men".

nolurkynolighty · 27/01/2018 15:09

ha ha i personally find "hairy men in dresses and lipstick" pretty can be pretty damn hot! genuinely wish more men would dress like that. my main issue with people of any identity that own penises is that i don't want them in certain spaces uninvited. for example my vagina or my public toilets.

NewlyLaidTerf · 27/01/2018 15:11

And I've just realised that I need to name change again because freshlylaidterf beat me to it, more or less.

DickTERFin · 27/01/2018 15:17

Name change twirl.

UpstartCrow · 27/01/2018 15:20

Oh thats punny Grin

DickTERFin · 27/01/2018 15:22

Badum tish!

Thehairthebod · 27/01/2018 15:23

Hey OP. Thanks for posting this. Any article that doesn't employ ugly caricatures and tropes about hairy men in dresses and lipstick out to get us probably won't be well received - but anything calm, rational and reasonable about trans people is a pleasant and refreshing change.

Except the OP appears to have plopped this article and run, rather than staying to debate the points.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 27/01/2018 15:32

What about women who present as men and who don't then get invited for smears? When one dies of cervical cancer, will it be the NHS's fault?

TransHobbit · 27/01/2018 15:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BitterLittlePoster · 27/01/2018 15:51

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

Actually there are NO states with laws that require people to use bathrooms based on sex. North Carolina had one but it's been repealed.

I guess the author's google is broken.

whoputthecatout · 27/01/2018 16:00

Guess the OP is a person who doesn't like sport as they don't address it at all. But then why would they worry about 6ft 3" 16 stone blokes winning all the women's strength contest or playing in the women's hockey/football/rugby etc. teams or some lanky sod who is trans taking the cycling medals. Which, as we know, from numerous reports is already happening. RIP women's sport.

But as we also know OP doesn't care about facts - at all.

Freshlylaidterf · 27/01/2018 16:04

DickTERFin
Grin

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 27/01/2018 16:06

Sex protections exist because one sex is far more violent than the other, and commits the majority of all sexual crimes.

Women and girls matter op. Their spaces, their voices, their dignity. I am sorry that you feel they are lesser beings than males, I feel sorry for you. Hating women and girls the way you do is irrational and if I'm honest a tad hysterical. You need to work on that op, you really do.

blackdoggotmytongue · 27/01/2018 16:13

Oh, well that’s all right then. As long as people with penises who wear dresses get what they want, it’s not important that 51% of the population is endangered, marginalized, and loses the mere shreds of equality they have managed to scrape together.
What a load of old tosh, op. I couldn’t even read it with a straight face. It’s straight out of the Trump school of disingenuity. You can bald-faced lie, and if you appear to be sincere enough, the hard of thinking will believe you and spread the lies for you.
Pfft.

ForagingForFaerieGold · 27/01/2018 16:17

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

Possibly one of the stupidest things I have ever read - ever.

ForagingForFaerieGold · 27/01/2018 16:22

Hey OP. Thanks for posting this. Any article that doesn't employ ugly caricatures and tropes about hairy men in dresses and lipstick out to get us probably won't be well received - but anything calm, rational and reasonable about trans people is a pleasant and refreshing change.

Do you mean caricatures like this?

Because this is the new reality of "Transwomen"

Transgender and womens spaces
blackdoggotmytongue · 27/01/2018 16:30

Op can you help me with a work dilemma? I assign bedrooms to students. We collect gender. Not sex. I assign anyone that self-identifies as F a female share partner. This means that I am paid to place men with fully functional penises in a bed two feet away from a woman who may be a rape victim, a DV survivor, or from a culture where she is expressly forbidden to interact with males unsupervised. I put him in her bedroom. Just because he ticked F on a form.
If she complains, she then gets the whole transphobe, bigot shite thrown at her, and he gets lauded for being the victim. He will also get a free upgrade to a single room.
The rape victim who can’t share a bedroom with a man will be moved (IF we have space) and will pay all the costs involved. Or will have to move off campus if no room is available.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Self ID is a nightmare.
I have a daughter at university. I am able to pay for a single room. (In that, frankly, I am not sure HOW i’m Going to do it, but I will.)
Why on earth do you think we HAVE sex-segregated spaces?
Why do the think the need for sex-segregated spaces has disappeared?
I just read another thread with yet another sex offender throwing s tantrum and wanting to be moved to a female prison. Why do you want to force women vulnerable to abuse and pregnancy into enforced cohabitation with convicted sex offenders?
Are you getting off on it?
What kind of person actually wants women to be put in more danger of sex based violence?
Take a look in the mirror and stop virtue signalling. You are endangering the rest of us.

DailyWTFMoments · 27/01/2018 16:51

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change

The law currently dictates that only biological women, and women with a GRC can appear on Women only short lists. As you give said yourself, the ability to self-identify is intended to remove the perceived barriers associated with obtaining a GRC - yet you say that removing the requirement for a GRC won't increase the number of trans on AWS - so it's not a barrier at all ......

I welcome posts like yours - because it invites posts such as those you have had in reply. It is the replies that educate and inform; each time a goady post from a TRA is posted here, a few more MNers read the replies and reach peak-trans - realising that the cause they have been defending is all about men, not women at all.

BlindYeo · 27/01/2018 16:57

it's straight out of the Trump school of disingenuity

It's straight out of the Grauniad school of disingenuity.