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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender and womens spaces

279 replies

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 13:39

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

OP posts:
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mummybear701 · 29/01/2018 17:55

Forgot to mention, there are a wealth of tips and advice on how to ‘pass’ at the GiC- what to say, how to warp or falsify your history, what to wear, how to act so you’re read as a true transgender.

So they might as well go with self id then?

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 29/01/2018 17:57

One that a man thought to have transitioned to make offending easier would not get transferred

He would if he had a GRC.

even a woman born female could be held in a male prison or secure unit (likely found in a male prison) if thought to pose a danger to women and girls.

This is extremely rare. From the guidance I linked to:

6.2 Women offenders who present a high risk of harm to other women are managed safely in the female estate. Transgender women who pose similar risks should be managed in a similar way in the female estate. In a judicial review of September 2009 (R (on the application of AB) v Secretary of State for Justice [2009] EWHC 2220 (Admin)) the judge held that a male to female transsexual prisoner with a GRC had to be transferred to the female estate even though one of her index offences was attempted rape of a woman.1

6.3 There may be exceptional cases where it is necessary to refuse a transfer to the female estate for a transgender (male to female) prisoner with a GRC. This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. If a transfer is refused, the prisoner will be a female prisoner in the male estate. She must be held separately and according to a female prisoner regime as set out in PSO 4800. This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 17:58

Also, mummybear, how about answering the questions that I posed on the last page? If you genuinely want to discuss the issues and all.

Datun · 29/01/2018 17:59

mummybear701

You seem be googling and then leaving out half the information in order to shore up your argument.

A man thought to be transitioning for gain, would still be eligible for transfer if he has a GRC.

I really don't know what would happen if he said out loud, I want to go to the female prison to rape the women.

But he would almost have to say exactly that.

We had a doctor on here last year who was supposed to give her opinion about these exact men.

She said that she was breaking her oath, no matter what she did. Because she has to affirm what they say, (memorandum of understanding), but she knew they were going to be dangerous to women.

It's ludicrous system where you are relying on a convict to tell you the truth!

More surprisingly that even a woman born female could be held in a male prison or secure unit (likely found in a male prison) if thought to pose a danger to women and girls.

More disingenuity.

The reason a woman might get transferred to the male estate if she posed a significant enough risk to warrant top security, is because they do not exist for women.

And that is not at all 'surprising'.

(There are no women in these male secure units btw)

TransHobbit · 29/01/2018 18:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LangCleg · 29/01/2018 18:04

6.3 There may be exceptional cases where it is necessary to refuse a transfer to the female estate for a transgender (male to female) prisoner with a GRC. This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. If a transfer is refused, the prisoner will be a female prisoner in the male estate. She must be held separately and according to a female prisoner regime as set out in PSO 4800. This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

Yes. This means Category A prisoners. England and Wales only have one female prison capable of accommodating Category A prisoners. Scotland and NI have none. All their Category A female prisoners are housed in the male estate.

Datun · 29/01/2018 18:04

TransHobbit

Forgot to mention, there are a wealth of tips and advice on how to ‘pass’ at the GiC- what to say, how to warp or falsify your history, what to wear, how to act so you’re read as a true transgender.

Do they fall the doctors, do you think?

Because they rarely fool women.

It's depressingly easy to get a AGP individual to reveal themselves. They get angry, very, very quickly. And all the misogynistic language comes tumbling out.

Jaxhog · 29/01/2018 18:07

I think I've just seen the ultimate craziness now! A girl, transitioning to become a boy (for 2 years), competing as a girl in a female wrestling contest! Where will it all end?

www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html?utm_term=.3617b64e6678

PencilsInSpace · 29/01/2018 18:11

So they might as well go with self id then?

JFC! Hmm

Let's turn this around shall we? Given that:

  1. as TransHobbit points out, the vast majority of trans people don't bother getting a GRC because they simply don't see the need

  2. in the very few situations where a GRC makes a difference self-ID could cause severe harm to women and girls

  3. laws are never made or changed on the basis of 'might as well'

Lets see you make the case why we should change the law. Who would benefit and in what ways?

Datun · 29/01/2018 18:13

Just to get this in perspective.

There are currently 14,000 men in prison for sex offences.

Three times more than the number of women prisoners in total.

There are approximately 120 women in prison for sex offences.

There are about 115 transwomen in prison for sex offences.

Almost half of all transwomen who are in prison, are there for sex offences. Way, way above average.

If those transwomen get a GRC, they will double the number of women sex offenders.

Can you imagine what would happen to the 14,000 men who realise they only have to fill out a form?

PencilsInSpace · 29/01/2018 18:15

This is well worth a watch for anyone trying to work out what they think about all this

Datun · 29/01/2018 18:22

Someone has kindly pointed out to me that the picture I posted of the man trying to become a rape counsellor was in fact his lawyer.

Apologies.

And apologies to the lawyer!

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 18:24

Is there any way that I can get either the OP or Rat to answer my questions?

Jaxhog · 29/01/2018 18:25

@Datun those figures are really disturbing

mummybear701 · 29/01/2018 18:31

It was kind of tongue in cheek transhobbit and until that post I did welcome your contribution to this thread and the perspective you have that others won't. All I was saying is any system will have its flaws. Self id will simply bring the birth certificate in line with other documents you pointed out without degrading, beaurocratic, time consuming and costly procedures. Some people will never be satisfied, thats clear from the tone of some posts.

OP posts:
TransHobbit · 29/01/2018 18:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

titchy · 29/01/2018 19:17

OP would you like to consider the posts where people have shown you examples of TIM in female spaces and the consequences?

Or have the TRAs who's views you're parroting seemingly without doing your own research, not addressed these which is why you ignore them?

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 29/01/2018 19:27

mummy A transwoman is a transwoman. Why would you want that person to have documentation that pretends they are a woman instead of accepting their existence as a transperson?

When people say transwomen are women I find myself wondering why they can't bear the idea of transpeople. Why do they have to be erased? Why do you want everyone to be forced to pretend that the transperson is something else? What bothers you so much?

Datun · 29/01/2018 19:43

Self id will simply bring the birth certificate in line with other documents you pointed out without degrading, beaurocratic, time consuming and costly procedures.

Have you actually seen the form used in Ireland where they have self id? It's name, address, cheque. Thank you and good night.

A GRC is THE legal document.

It's the document needed to be a legal woman. All the other documents are used to support it.

At the moment, in the UK, you need to be over 18, have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and have lived as the opposite sex for two years.

You cannot access things for women like all women shortlists unless you have that document.

It's the only part that is enshrined in law.

Men can use the toilets of the opposite sex because it's not illegal And you can not be discriminated against on the basis of gender reassignment. Under the Equalities Act.

But The only legal document that you can have for things that are specifically ring fenced in the EA for women require a GRC.

All women shortlist, prisons.
They need a GRC, otherwise fuck off.

If a GRC is no more than filling out a form, 14,000 offenders can legitimately be transferred to a woman's prison if they have a pen.

What is it that you don't get about this for fuck's sake?

Ereshkigal · 29/01/2018 19:55

Are you seriously taking my comment about people gaming the system as supporting evidence for removing all protection?

Fuckssake, this is at the level of “folks gonna do criminal shit whatever, might as well get rid of the police”. What are you, twelve?

Yes, quite. This is the "logic" transactivists and allies come out with to justify their wishes for no gatekeeping whatsoever. See also, "women already get attacked by men, we can't stop this so why punish trans people?"

NannyOggsKnickers · 29/01/2018 19:56

I get the feeling that mummybear does understand but either:

A) Doesn’t give a crap about women/women’s safety.

And/Or

B) Thinks supporting the AGPs will give her enough virtue signalling points to lord it over everyone forever. ‘I was an early supporter of trans rights, you know.’

I would say both.

titchy · 29/01/2018 20:00

OP do you understand the extraordinary lengths predatory males go to in order to gain access to women and children? Years of scout/teacher/sports coach/seminary/counselling / medic training, dating single parents, spending years grooming their targets, years. Befriending, supporting, training, helping. Just to abuse.

Self id - no need for any of the above. Fill in a form, send off a cheque. Boom! Bob is now Barbara and can wander into a rape crisis centre, a DV shelter, a female only gym session, an AWS, and get sent to a women's prison! I can absolutely guarantee that the vast majority who take advantage of this will not be gender dysphoric transsexuals, but AGP and predators.

nauticant · 29/01/2018 20:02

There's one thing to bear in mind in responding to this thread. TRAs lie. Continually. Although every now and then they'll also tell the truth if that suits their argument.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 20:11

Lie or dodge questions they don't want to answer, which is why I keep asking if mummy or Rat could take a few moments to answer the very simple questions I asked on the last page.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 21:24

Sorry Angry, I was on another thread; had to deal with the dc then when I came back that one had less to catch up on so I got back to posting on that one first! Will catch up on this one probs tomorrow.