Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender and womens spaces

279 replies

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 13:39

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Datun · 27/01/2018 17:06

The prisoners paragraph is the one where I know you are pushing a highly manipulative agenda.

If you remove the criteria for getting a GRC the 14,000 male sex offenders currently in prison will be guaranteed a place in the female estate on the basis that they identify as the opposite sex.

By filling out a form.

As the law currently stands.

There are about 120 women in prison at the moment for sex offences.

Compared to 14,000 men. Bearing in mind that transitioning does not alter male pattern violence.

Perhaps you disagree with the criteria for male prisoners?

That exceptions should be made in terms of the criteria. In order to limit the number of sex offenders who would be eligible for transfer on the basis of having a GRC?

I'd be interested to hear your views.

Unless, of course, you have a cake to ice.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 27/01/2018 17:10

Unless, of course, you have a cake to ice.

Weird how they always have domestic chores to do and that's why they can't respond. Huh.

Datun · 27/01/2018 17:13

blackdoggotmytongue

Your specific situation is appalling.

This might be a really useful link for you. It sets out the exemptions for each of the different circumstances under which women need segregation. And which bit of the law you can invoke to get them.

lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/FPFW_UK_Equality_Act_2010_guide.pdf?token=AWzWfPWhVlXCinAHs_PbVzGoDv63wIS8tbVQ9CytiN4C2UFobDmDEEjynFxMTwRM4EgS6q4BMoe72kfs0E78ruoJXTWF3FJZ4YvBDHUp3ZMlqOoxqZdGAjcRMlJq14w82z76pHlhRPQ9_rYnZp5_pR-zUnwvTC4WY3aYcElRIxU8gS9_J9SoAHiJwSaRrWUygKzOzpOteMY0VvKOBGTjV7iK2KM8sk5vcMg9G2-Cx6u0cA

TransHobbit

Contributions from transwomen, of which we have quite a few, are incredibly useful.

You won't alter the mind of the OP, because they have far more in common with men's rights activists, than they do transwomen.

But you will, very definitely, help people who are lurking, to understand why there is this schism.

TransHobbit · 27/01/2018 17:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

stoneagefertilitydoll · 27/01/2018 17:31

There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks

Lets keep sex segregation, and if they're assaulted in the men's the law can deal with it, as you say at the top.

There are vanishingly few reports of transwomen being attacked in men's toilets (see we can all spout off stats)

a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

not even half? every women I know well enough to talk to about this stuff has been sexually assaulted at least once in their life. Sounds like male privilege to me.

Datun · 27/01/2018 17:37

OP, Do you think this man should be transferred to the female estate?

He going on hunger strike in order to force the prison authorities.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3151526-Trans-prisoner-on-hunger-strike-in-mens-prison

I would, quite genuinely, like to know your opinion. Because if you feel like there should be exceptions, I'd like to know why? And how that could be implemented?

Datun · 27/01/2018 17:39

... because according to stonewall, he is as much of a transwoman as anyone else.

In fact, according to Stonewall, I am a transwoman.

Almost every feminist is. How does that work out for you, OP?

blackdoggotmytongue · 27/01/2018 17:49

transhobbit Grin arf.
No SOH allowed in feminism. Be orf with you. Grin

Datun · 27/01/2018 17:49

And just in case you think this is feminists and terfs, The story has been posted in AIBU.

Which is characterised by its 'handing people their arse on a plate' should there be any disagreement.

There are 12 million unique users per month on mumsnet.

The majority of whom often visit the AIBU board.

The questions and fervent need for a debate around transgenderism are not confined to feminists.

blackdoggotmytongue · 27/01/2018 18:22

Datun - thanks for the link re exemptions. I will make some time to investigate further. Given that I have already been involved in an employment workshop where a TIM was invited to lecture on ways we can improve accessibility (for trans people) which included added preferred pronouns to email signature blocks, and starting all departmental meetings by introducing yourself by name and gender identity to prevent confusion, I somehow doubt the actual law is up to it. The next one is a mandatory anti-harassment training which includes psychological violence.
Worth a try though. Who needs a job anyway. (Me. I do.)

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 19:18

I wonder what the spin from the journos and politicians who've been championing self-ID hardest will be when they finally notice that it's not just a small coven of radfem witches who have objections to what they're planning to impose on us?

Datun · 27/01/2018 19:23

blackdoggotmytongue

Yes, this is the massive issue, for me.
We have the law in place.

No one is going with the law.
They are going with pressure and cultural protocols that are being invented every bloody day.

blackdoggotmytongue · 27/01/2018 19:32

I am enjoying the irony of the ‘do your same sex/ same age children share a room?’ thread which is appearing next to this one in my active.
I want to post jeez love, why are you bothering to segregate them? They won’t have that luxury whjen they leave home, but I am sitting on my hands. Sex segregation is so twentieth century.

PidgeonPodge · 27/01/2018 19:34

Speaking as a transman, I don’t want the new GRA to go through. It’s inflammatory, divisive and removes protection for two vulnerable groups; women and Trans folk. We’re losing allies in the wider LGBT community and further afield.

TRA’s time would be better spent in campaigning for better healthcare, increased access to counselling and a more robust system of gatekeeping to direct dysphoric people to the appropriate agencies. If your dysphoria is rooted in societal issues or depression then it’s best served through therapy, not transitioning. The fetishists can do one too. The NHS wasn’t set up for then to get their kink on*

I came on to give my two cents but I can't really say much more than that!

OP that is the biggest pile of wank I've ever seen, and I've googled #transgirl on twitter, so that's saying something...

GardenGeek · 27/01/2018 19:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 19:36

Oh, you haven't seen the Guardian's latest about the sex offender and his "plight" of being unable to access hair straightener while in prison yet? Cause I think he wins wank of the week by a mile.

PidgeonPodge · 27/01/2018 19:50

I've just seen it AngryAttackKittens, it's absolutely ridiculous.

Some Transgender 'women' are a danger to women; and it is becoming custom that its ok for them to behave in a threatening way

I'm thinking of lengthening my own description to 'transsexualwoman (as that's what I hear in my own head anyway)

But 'transwoman' doesn't separate me out anymore from the transtrender TRA brigade. What was wrong with the old fashioned 'cross-dressers'.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 19:53

I love how the Guardian updated to include some details of what he was convicted for but conveniently left out the child porn charges.

Myunicornfliessideways · 27/01/2018 21:10

but anything calm, rational and reasonable about trans people is a pleasant and refreshing change.

Oh fgs Lunar unless you're wandering around this board with your hands over your eyes you're as aware as I am of the many posts on these threads written by calm, rational, reasonable Trans Mumsnetters who themselves are pointing out the harm that women here are trying to talk about. Don't be so damn silly.

CisMyArse · 27/01/2018 22:44

blackdog this is frightening. You're in the UK? This shit is happening now, on our doorstep?

thebewilderness · 28/01/2018 02:51

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets
Except for the beatings and the rapes of course, but for some reason no matter how many times violence happens the trans advocates continue to claim this never happens.
If you want the truth you can google 'this never happens'.

SwerfyTerfy · 28/01/2018 04:06

Hello OP.
Unfortunately, transgenders seem to think they are being attacked, assaulted, excluded or oppressed if somebody
Uses their legal name.
Misgenders them
Tells them they aren't female/male dependant on which they have transitioned to.

So unfortunately it makes it very hard for me to believe that these statistics are accurate. Do you have something that is reasonably verifiable?
Something from the ONS or similar would be great. Or the home office/MoJ, rape crisis. Etc.

Here are some statistics for you, too.

In the year ending march 2017 1.2 million women experienced some form of domestic abuse.

The majority of domestic homicides (approx 70% of all in England + Wales) happen against women. Total 319.

only 3% of female victims (11 females) were killed by a female, eight of which were killed by their mother; female victims were killed by their fathers in 34 cases.
114 were killed by a spouse or civil partner, 47 were killed by their common-law spouse or cohabiting partner, 35 were killed by a boyfriend and 28 were killed by an ex-spouse, ex-common law spouse or ex-cohabiting partner.
So, 97% of those crimes were committed by men, the majority of which were partners or husbands, or ex partners of their victims.

Every hour almost 10 (9.8) women are raped. Every, hour. Let that sink in.

The only verifiable statistics I can find with regards to transwomen(can't find any on transmen but I'll have a peek if someone else can) suggests that murders, violence etc is considerably less likely to happen to a transwomen (instead of y'know, women) and TW have one of the lowest murder rates in the entire country.

In 2016 in the USA (highest trans murder rates I could find) 26 transwomen died due to fatal violence. The most recent guesstimate for the trans population in the USA is 1.75 million.
Which gives a murder rate of approx 1 in 67,000.
The murder rate in some towns in the USA is as high as 17 people per 100,000. Scaling it down to 70,000 (for a better comparison) would be 11 people. However the average is around 6 people per 100,000. Meaning that trans people in the USA are considerably safer than every other group (including men and women)

In the UK I can find 8 instances of transwomen being murdered.
6 of which turned out to not have been murdered at all (vikki Thompson, ruled accidental death,
Jacqueline Cowdre, found not to be murdered).
3 were sex workers, one of which was killed by their husband. Another 2 were killed by a client.

One was killed by another transgender person.

One was killed because of drug debts.
Another was killed by two big issue sellers to steal their disability benefit.

The total of transwomen murdered in the last 10 years is the same (6) is less (6.64) than the amount of women killed in domestic homicides in the year ending 2017 scaled down to a weekly statistic.
In 2016-2017 more women were killed per week than transwomen in 10 years. Let that sink in.

Sources
ONS, NSPCC, rape crisis England, women's aid wales, women's aid, "an overview of sexual offending in England and Wales" (released by the ministry of justice). Transrespect, the home office.

Datun · 28/01/2018 08:21

SwerfyTerfy

TERF - Telling Everybody Real Facts.

Ledkr · 28/01/2018 08:38

How about the women working in the sexual assault centres (me) we already have to go to our cars in twos as we have been threatened.
Male access will make it far more risky for clients and staff working on the helplines at night.

2018username · 28/01/2018 08:55

Hi Hobbit thanks for posting, it's really good to hear from a transman! I follow several great transwomen on twitter and there's some that post near too, but we're not hearing directly from a lot of transmen.

Are you up for questions? Fine if not Smile

Swipe left for the next trending thread