Transgender and womens spaces

[mummybear701]

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

TransHobbit

Sorry, your 'transman actually' passed me by!

In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service.

Saying something doesn't mean it's true. Completely ignoring for a moment whether 'most' women would be happy being treated by a transwoman (I highly doubt you have any studies to back that up which have actually explored that issue), it's disingenuous to say most women are happy being treated by men.

How can you know that? Again what study are you referring to which has helped you/the author of the gumpf you posted reach that conclusion? Many male medical professionals are fantastic, compassionate people. But given many women are rape victims and scared of men it's likely some to many women do have difficulties being treated by male doctors, even nice, kind professional men. Many allow themselves to be treated by men because they present to hospitals at a time when they're very ill or vulnerable and their priority is to be treated (and maybe they don't feel they have a choice). Many too, no doubt, can rationally say they're in safe hands but still feel uncomfortable. And yes I'm sure some have no issues being treated by men - but just making this sweeping statement in such a patronising manner makes it seem like anyone who has a problem is a silly girl making a fuss.

I'm betting if you actually properly surveyed women, many would admit to the fact they'd prefer to be treated by a woman or that being treated by a man presents some issue for them, even if it's a minor one.

I'm one of those people. Technically I'm happy with being treated by a good male doctor but I do then go home and feel pannicked for a few days and get nightmares.

It is so easy to parrot sweeping statements which you've essentially plucked out your arse. The tone of what you've posted is very patronising.

'a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives'

How does that compare to women? Most of the women I know have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives. Depressingly.

Ah but Fair, that's women. These are men, sad men who want stuff. We have to give SadMenThatWantStuff what they want. Don't worry, only women and girls will suffer, not real people.

womensspacesinscotland.com/the-consultation/
There is useful information about the Scottish government consultation and concerns some of us have. There is a meeting in Edinburgh on February 14th with Woman’s Place Uk and Women’s Spaces in Scotland. t.co/1xkeIgWeU1

No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health.

This is chilling, is it really true? Any man can go in a womens prison, even without a GRC?

Lovely how only the 'transwomans' mental health and such are considered. But I should not be surprised. The wants of men always come about the needs of women.

A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoner

This again, only caring about the transwomans safety. Not the danger they could pose to the other women in there.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

Also yes, of course. Saying people should use the correct loo for their sex makes it much easier for men to enter womens toilets unchallenged. But, literally saying any man can enter (self-ID) is the way forward and will stop men entering?! Give your head a wobble, tbh.

As for gynaecological services, I have no issue in being treated by a man. I have no wish to be treated by a man who has fetishised women's bodies.

Bottom line is that prioritising TIMs is the greatest evidence that they are men. If anyone believed for a second that "Tw are w" then they'd be treated with the same derision as actual women.

I know many lovely men. I know some lovely people who are what used to be called drag queens. Lovely nice people.

I know a handful of men who are utter cunts. Under self ID. If they raped or assaulted a woman, which they have all done, often their partner, they would definitely make sure they got access to rape crisis as a "woman" to get access to their partner.

Actually, I expect most wouldn't have to go that far. They would simply tell their victim with a smirk that if they go to a crisis centre or a refuge that he will get himself into that same space and if she objects she will be called a bigot and even if they don't call her a bigot and try to get him removed they can't because it's the law. And she in her vulnerable state will believe him, probably rightly so to some extent and won't get help.

That's my biggest problem with your arguments.

They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

This argument gets used a lot, and it's an empty one. In all honesty, almost all the time, you won't need to check, you'll know. Your body was designed to recognise which biological sex someone is, and height, build, movement, voice, there are a lot of signals. We cannot opt out of our biology.

Many people commented after India Willoughby was on CBB that while in photographs you might not know it was now apparent how carefully lit and set those photographs have been. On screen when moving and talking naturally the signals of biological sex were apparent. Even Jazz Jennings who has had hormones from such an early age and hasn't gone through male puberty still has clear indicators of biological sex. (Examples of well known trans men celebrities are harder to find as trans men just don't seem to get into the public eye or be celebrated in the same way for some reason. Can't think why. )

I notice the OP hasn't come back.

I wonder if it's a subversive attempt to peak more women.

Because, as usual, any arguments which are pro legalising men as women simply expose all the flaws.

For instance:

but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Firstly it ignores the fact that the very last people that sexually traumatised women want to share space with is men. Particularly men who are delusional.

And simply doesn't address the other side of the coin which is transwomen becoming rape counsellors.

Because a man who fetishises women's biology and is aroused by the thought of rape could apply to become a rape counsellor. By self identifying as a woman.

Like the man in the screenshot, for instance.

Now, any normal person would think that the application would just be torn up and thrown in the bin. Which they tried to do.

But no.

On hearing the evidence, which included Rape Relief's concern that Nixon's appearance which they found masculine would be disturbing for traumatized clients looking for a women-only refuge, they found in favour of Nixon and awarded her a record $7,500. They also referred the feminist collective for sensitivity training.

They took it to the Supreme Court.

Still no.

Rape Relief took the tribunal decision to review at the B.C. Supreme Court, which quashed it. In his decision, Justice E.R.A. Edwards wrote that "excluding Nixon based on her experience as a male is not discriminatory under the code."

Nixon was interested in Rape Relief specifically because of its women-only policy, which, he wrote, "would vindicate her womanhood."

After TWELVE fucking years of legal wrangling, costing the centre thousands of dollars:

*Thursday, Feb. 1, the Supreme Court of Canada denied the transsexual woman's appeal to have her case heard. Nixon launched a human rights complaint against the feminist-run non-profit society for excluding her as a volunteer peer counsellor for raped and battered women. The court awarded costs to Rape Relief.

If you think that a man identifying as a woman should not be a rape counsellor, then you do not believe transwomen are women.

If you believe transwomen are women, and you do think that rape crisis centres should include transwomen on their staff, in order to support their identity...

You can fuck right off with your la la land assertion that None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Link

thetyee.ca/News/2007/02/03/Nixon/

None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.
Most of what OP says is simply not true. Certainly this bit is an outrageous lie. Women have been evicted from shelters that admit trans identified males because they complained about the predatory behavior of the trans identified males.
Why? Because if you boot a woman out of a shelter for being transphobic no one cares but if you boot a trans identified male out of a shelter the rage response can get your shelter burned to the ground.
Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Physically, I am taller than the average woman and well above average strength for a woman. The vast majority of men are still physically larger and much more powerful than me. We all know that men are more likely to be seriously violent to women than women are to women. Women rarely break other women's jaws or hospitalise each other, whereas men do this to women a lot. Men rarely feel physically threatened by an angry woman. The race or religion of a person being 'opposite' to mine isn't something that puts me at risk in the same way if we are both women.

Therefore if a man is getting aggressive with me I am much more fearful than if a woman were getting aggressive. I will be much more careful of avoiding making an angry man more angry in an enclosed space. Every girl is taught tricks of how to de-escalate and get away from angry men or men who have decided they want you. We need these techniques because we all find ourselves in risky situations so often as #metoo has highlighted.

So, let's say I am in a situation with a transperson who clearly has the size and strength of man but is presenting as a woman, let's say in a changing room, a women's political meeting, a consulting room in a clinic. Let's say I am uncomfortable about something and want to say speak up.

Women are socialised to put men's needs first so I will be hesitant to press my case anyway. I am going to be more worried about a transperson because I've been told that having their status as a woman questioned in any way feels like literal violence and often makes transpeople suicidal. Yikes.

That this particular man who presents as a woman won't escalate to violence in this situation isn't something I can know in advance. All I can know is that he is more likely to than a woman and if he does escalate that I will certainly come off worst by a long way.

As a woman this is a risk assessment I have to do frequently around men. That's life as a woman.

Telling me that I should treat a biological man as if he is the same a biological woman doesn't take account of vulnerability that exists simply because of my biology. I can't identify my way out of it.

Hi 👋 How old are you now and hold old were you when you transitioned?

What are your thoughts on breast binding in under 18's because this is the issue that's concerning me?

Don't answer anything you're not comfortable with but I appreciate you being here because I'm very concerned at the explosion of young FtM's I'm encountering in real life and how best they can be helped.

Many people commented after India Willoughby was on CBB that while in photographs you might not know it was now apparent how carefully lit and set those photographs have been. On screen when moving and talking naturally the signals of biological sex were apparent. Even Jazz Jennings who has had hormones from such an early age and hasn't gone through male puberty still has clear indicators of biological sex

This fascinates me. When I heard of IW on BB, I googled her. I thought she looked quite convincingly female to be honest. I watched a clip of BB and was confused. I thought I must have seen a photo of the wrong person. Because the briefest glimpse of just the back of IW and her storming off having argued with the other women - there was no question at all that her sex was male. It was impossible to think otherwise.

Likewise I saw my first clip of Jazz Jennings recently. Jazz must have had cross-sex hormones far earlier than your average transsexual. She is very pretty and again in photos easily passes as female. I was expecting to only read her as female, far more than any other transwoman. Again my brain had no problem spotting her sex was male once I saw a video. She had mannerisms which seemed to indicate quite a camp male but my brain immediately honed in on her real sex. It was undeniable. If she can't pass, nobody can.

TransHobbit

Can I ask a question? Please don't answer if you don't want to. Despite my wanting to understand this better, it feels incredibly intrusive to ask these questions.

Can you describe what it felt like to want to be a man?

Or, do you just feel as though you have always been male, and if so can you describe that?

I've been offline over the weekend so just catching up with this now.

TRA’s time would be better spent in campaigning for better healthcare, increased access to counselling and a more robust system of gatekeeping to direct dysphoric people to the appropriate agencies.
Having slowly read my way through the trans-friendly thread I'm thinking this is something that those of us who have a better perspective on the trans issue (thanks to MN in my case) should consider doing. Reading the insights offered by pidgeon and curry, and now hobbit is a reminder of all the people of empathy and integrity who present as a different gender to their birth assigned one, who are being utterly trampled on by the TRAs. Widening the focus of the argument from what isn't acceptable (self ID and carte blanche entry into women's spaces) to what would be (gender neutral spaces? Investment in specific services for trans-identifying women and men? - I can't pretend to know and don't want to speak for those groups) would serve both women and transgender people, whilst taking back some control of the narrative from the shrill TRAs. These threads have shown that feminists and transpeople have much common ground, and I'd be very interested in building on that.

(Sorry - slight thread derail there! As you were...)