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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender and womens spaces

279 replies

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 13:39

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

OP posts:
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BarrackerBarmer · 29/01/2018 10:07

Interesting, OP.
So what you're saying, is men who think they're women have already successfully made life shitty for actual women, which you applaud, and would like to see more of, hence you support enshrining such woman hating practice further into law?

Or, perhaps, women are beginning to push back, and the gains made whilst we were being nice are going to be rolled back.

Transwomen are men.
Women are saying 'Fuck off. We are not like you."

I'd advise you to listen.

MightyMikey · 29/01/2018 10:12

How is this article by Fair Play For Women not been taken up by main stream media. It clearly points out that we should be wary of these TIMs.
The elephant in the room, the thing that is too bigoted to say, is that a lot of these people are at best mentally unwell (so need proper help) and at worst dangerous (so need proper help and to be securely held from vulnerable people). Pity it's too transphobic to even research this phenomenon and to try and keep ourselves safe by protecting and segregating ourselves from this crazy.
Most women have an inbuilt radar telling us to keep away from people we feel are - not quite alright - women's intuition is necessary to keep us safe.

fairplayforwomen.com/prisons/transgender-prisoners/

Datun · 29/01/2018 10:15

MightyMikey

It was. Dr Nic Williams was interviewed on TV, with India Willoughby.

This was before India went on Big Brother.

Unsurprisingly, Dr Williams couldn't get a word in edgeways.

You can probably google the interview.

seafoodeatit · 29/01/2018 10:19

I'm sorry but you're so wrong. The patronising tone isn't helping either but that's the least of my concerns.

Actually your first claim is bullshit. Don't gloss over societal norms, they are more important then actual laws you could argue because they control what's considered acceptable and what isn't. If self id is pushed forward any woman who feels uncomfortable in a changing room with a man claiming to be a woman will not be able to claim harasment or disturbance of the peace but will actually be told tough shit, potentially called a bigot and told they're literally killing someone with their views. (Wtf?).

Without even reading the rest of it, guess what? I don't need fucking to. You're going on the basis that silly women and their silly thoughts, your sex doesn't matter your safety doesn't matter. Stop projecting this bullshit notion that women should be complicit in their own erasure.

MightyMikey · 29/01/2018 10:20

Datun. Thanks for the heads-up, I'll look this up, although IW will give me a thumping headache, so will watch with a soothing cup of herbal tea, followed by a jammy dodger biscuit. The only way to watch IW with my nerves intact 😀

PracticallyTerfectInEveryWay · 29/01/2018 10:22

Sterling work by Dr Williams and contributors Star. Thanks for linking Mighty

TransHobbit · 29/01/2018 10:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TransHobbit · 29/01/2018 10:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 29/01/2018 10:42

TransHobbit

Ah. Thank you!

Can I delve further?

Being read as a man? Which I can, given I some imagination, easily envisage.

Is that because being read as a man can be beneficial, in terms of the way you are treated generally?

Or is it more to do with dating and romantic relationships?

Again, don't feel pressured to answer.

Although I can't tell you what a relief it is to be able to talk to somebody who doesn't try to obscure everything.

DodoPatrol · 29/01/2018 10:50

TransHobbit, when you say that binding can be done safely, how? I thought it was likely to damage children's developing breast tissue permanently, and while I suppose that might not be a problem for those who would have continued to mastectomy, what about the children who would have desisted?

Even if it doesn't damage tissue irreparably, what about the concerns that children using binders may struggle to get their breath? (The Scouts actually have guidance on making allowances for children who are unable to participate in energetic sports because of binding - not great for their health, I assume. I don't know if schools are getting the same guidance.)

If you just mean 'wear a good sports bra', that's a different matter.

(I have three to four transboys in my life to varying degrees at present; none of them my own kids. I'm massively concerned about misinformation, mine or other people's.)

2018username · 29/01/2018 10:58

Thanks Hobbit that's interesting that you were a late transitioned I've not come across that before.

Thank you for sharing your story I completely respect and support your right to live your life your way and I hope you do that free of discrimination and with appropriate medical support.

I cannot and will not support breast binding or medication in under 18's and will be actively campaigning against that. We don't allow tattoos, some piercings and other permanent body changes in under 18's and we should not allow this.

Breast ironing and FGM is a safeguarding issue and so is this.

Adults can do what they like with their own bodies but the Instagram grooming of young females is not going to be continuing on my watch. It leads to a weakening of safeguards and consent.

I honestly wish you well in your life Hobbit and no offence intended

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 29/01/2018 11:00

I read that OP and my brain was going WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. to pretty much every point. Previous posters have all explained why, very eloquently. Thank you.

PidgeonPodge · 29/01/2018 11:14

I would also answer that I couldn't describe how being a woman 'feels' because I now don't believe such a feeling exists.

What I felt was an intense and overwhelming feeling of 'wrongness'. I would look at myself and my own male body and my brain would be screaming 'no, this is wrong, stop it now'. As a teenager I self harmed (as many do for various reasons) and found that the only way of shutting up the wrongness was to pretend I was someone else with a different body, a body as far away as possible from being 'me'.

If I'm completely honest, even after transitioning, there was still the same self hatred there (though quite lessened) which required much more counselling to get through. It certainly wasn't a quick fix, but it helped me.

Even now though I am aware that I am, in effect, a parody. Though not to the degree that more recent TRA's are (I would never try to assert that decorations, heels and makeup or even physical attributes are what makes a woman - for me it was all about my actual body)

I think that is why I'm so appalled at the 'nu-trans' idea that biology is offensive. No one I know who has transitioned in the past believes that we have removed all biological laws. The idea that I should be appalled by women talking about their biology or that I could ever get pregnant, need a smear test or lessen my muscular skeletal structure so that I could fairly compete with women in sport is the stuff of badly written fantasy.

My parents were as radical feminists as you could get back in their day, so I'm extremely aware that I should never be coming on here and telling anyone what to think (checking my privilege Grin) and that is the reason I lurked for so long.

But I have started posting as I thought it would help stem the 'transphobe' brigade from interrupted actual intelligent discussion. I would encourage any trans person lurking to join in and see if we can't stop this Orwellian future from coming to pass.

PidgeonPodge · 29/01/2018 11:15

Jesus, sorry. That seemed shorter when I was typing it Blush

ShotsFired · 29/01/2018 11:19

@PracticallyTerfectInEveryWay how is my daughter to distinguish that this is a proper lady-penis and no problem at all, from a man pretending to be a woman in order to deliberately flash her?

Duh. The lady penis will be wearing lipstick, heels and a dress, cos that is what makes you a woman, remember? Hmm

looks at self, realises must be a man today

ShotsFired · 29/01/2018 11:32

@RunRabbitRunRabbit We all know that men are more likely to be seriously violent to women than women are to women. Women rarely break other women's jaws or hospitalise each other, whereas men do this to women a lot. Men rarely feel physically threatened by an angry woman.

"Novelist Margaret Atwood writes that when she asked a male friend why men feel threatened by women, he answered, "They are afraid women will laugh at them." When she asked a group of women why they feel threatened by men, they said, "We're afraid of being killed.""

www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/articles/nightmare.html

HomeTerf · 29/01/2018 11:35

But I have started posting as I thought it would help stem the 'transphobe' brigade from interrupted actual intelligent discussion. I would encourage any trans person lurking to join in and see if we can't stop this Orwellian future from coming to pass.

So glad that you did start posting. As mentioned a bit further up, I wasn't on the 'Trans-friendly' thread but recently read through it, and realised how I've been guilty of focusing my attention on the group that shouts the loudest and getting duped into believing that they represent transpeople. It would be great to take back some control of the discussion.

ShotsFired · 29/01/2018 11:39

@mummybear701 If [transwomen] try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks

Hmm. I wonder who these "serious risks" are from?

Let me think. Who on earth would be found, in a men's toilet, that would try and harm someone they didn't like the look of for whatever reason? Who? Who? Who? What a poser....

Surely not men, right?

Because that would mean acknowledging that they are the danger and to give them complete free rein into any space of their choosing would be utterly disastrous.

UpstartCrow · 29/01/2018 11:41

PidgeonPodge Please don't apologise for the length of your posts. They are always well written and informative, & its not like you're just rambling on about things that don't matter.

Mumsnut · 29/01/2018 11:42

Pidg - would 'transs' be an option? (re nomenclature)

2018username · 29/01/2018 11:54

Please keep posting pidgeon I like your posts and I'm fairly new here myself.

I am fast coming to the conclusion that the transphobes are in fact the lunatics running around yelling 'my penis is female' and demanding that rapists are placed in female prisons! The only thing they can possibly be hoping to achieve with all this is inciting mistrust and hatred of trans people in the general public who previously had no opinion and just wanted to live and let live!

Flowers for the self harming. I hope that's stopped now, you sound a lovely person and I hope you have found acceptance in RL you deserve it.

PidgeonPodge · 29/01/2018 11:59

Mumsnut I would describe myself as a transsexual now I think.

I've read most of the brilliant posts here on this subject, and while I have happily called myself a transwoman in the past I do now see how that phrase is being used to beat women over the head with. It also is a word that is becoming almost meaningless.

I've given it quite a bit of thought and am happy with the description of transsexual, as that is what I am and doesn't designate me as a subset of either sex. That way transsexual issues won't get clouded with others (i.e. separate bathrooms) and we can also concentrate issues we all share, like biological male violence in all of it's forms.

I believe it would require the terfing out (Wink) of cross dressers and AGP's from the definition of transsexual to work though.

PidgeonPodge · 29/01/2018 12:01

It has stopped 2018username, therapy is a life saver. Fortunately I was in a position to pay for it, sadly many (not just trans but all issues) are not.

I was actually very content with my litlle corner of the planet until all this started kicking off.

LangCleg · 29/01/2018 12:01

But I have started posting as I thought it would help stem the 'transphobe' brigade from interrupted actual intelligent discussion.

Pidgeon - echoing the others. Your posts are great!

You sound very much of similar opinions to my friend (who claims the label transsexual rather than transgender, in an attempt to distinguish herself from the genderists).

I think it's absolutely vital that we can clarify through discussion that is the genderist ideology (sexist and homophobic as it is) that we object to. Not the existence of trans people.

mummybear701 · 29/01/2018 12:08

Wow! I posted this to get some serious discussion though it degenerated into a bit more than that. Some constructive points, others dismissing it offhand, or could it be silencing those they don't agree with? Oh the irony.

For the avoidance of doubt I did not write this article. The underlying point it is trying to show is how little will actually change on these issues with self id. To take them one by one.

Womens sport - already exempt for reasons stated numerous times. Nothing will change here.
Toilets - there never has been a law on use but a man or transwoman identifiable as a man may get hostility using female facilities. Whether they self id or not will not change that.
Refuge/prisons - I understand even a GRC or full sex change surgery does not automatically get transwomen into these spaces. That discretion has always existed and obviously will continue to. Trans people can already be excluded as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. So Huntley or the sex offender case posted on the board, no they should never get a transfer.

And the crux of the matter. Many are at pains to distinguish sex and gender, so we could end up with a system where gender can be self id but single sex services continue to work on that basis. People might then get into debates on what surgery/hormones etc. a transwoman has had and whether that has actually changed their sex, on a case by case basis. That would also apply to the example of single sex student accommodation, though I also think a blanket policy of allocating on birth assigned sex would not stand up to scrutiny.

Transhobbit yes those are legitimate concerns, that removing the GRC could remove with it some protections it brings.

As a women I have faced typical prejudice including unequal pay, lack of progression, and sexual misconduct. Should the fight for our equality be at the expense of other marginalised groups? I think not, all disadvantaged groups matter. Mens rights are different, mostly focused on retaining male superiority. AWS for instance have not nearly balanced female representation, but have made significant inroads, and some call it discrimination against men.

On the subject of toilets, I have sometimes been mistaken for a man despite being born female and always female, and the growing hostility to trans people may be affecting peoples attitudes more. Should I alter my appearance or how I dress because of this? No. But as toilets are cubicled it is easier to maintain privacy than say a communal changing room, and I can well understand someone even in the early stages of transition would feel unsafe using the gents.

My experience comes from knowing of a number of trans people and the trauma they face both with legal recognition and more generally, mostly male to female. They include a work colleague, a couple in DDs school and one in her dance class, all mtf and in all cases the biggest contention was toilets and changing. Also a friend of a friend who has had all the surgeries and social transition and still getting hell over her GRC application.

I am probably wasting time talking to the unconvertable on here, but those are my views. I'm entitled to them. Wink Both sides seem guilty of trying to shut down debate (not just on MN) and that won't do any favours.

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