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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Trans friendly thread!

999 replies

100lbtolose · 23/01/2018 14:43

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me Grin this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
Battleax · 23/01/2018 15:19

You've muddled up two things that need to be considered separately;

Transgenderism
&
Self ID

PecanPieFace · 23/01/2018 15:19

Yay yay transwomen are women transmen are men fuck the terfs

....that the kind of thing you were after op?

MyVisionsComeFromSoup · 23/01/2018 15:20

what about trans-racialism? Rachel Dolezal got in a spot of bother for that, why are there no threads promising a safe space for supporters of people believing themselves black when they're white?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 15:20

100

You could put a trans friendly thread in chat

That would probably be a better place and as i said it could be interesting

averylongtimeago · 23/01/2018 15:20

I don't hate trans people. If you want to identify as something other than your birth sex then go right ahead. I also think that trans people are entitled to the same human/civic/legal rights as everyone else.
So in that sense I AM trans friendly.

But please can you tell me how saying "I am a woman " or man as the case may be actually makes you one?
When I went to school, admittedly a few years ago now, "woman" meant "adult human female", of the sex which produces eggs and can bear young, who has XX chromosomes.
"Man" on the other hand means adult human male, with a penis and testicles, XY chromosomes.

Please can you say how you define "woman" ?

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle · 23/01/2018 15:21

Sorry hit post too soon...

Answer this honestly without waffle or bullshit, and please don't try the wide eyed innocent "I've never seen threats like that" shite because its 30 seconds on google to verify...

Do you think it's right that a man with a fully functioning penis, but IDing as a woman, can bully young lesbians into accepting their "lady dick" because to not want to makes the lesbian a "bigot"??

Do you think it's right that when said lesbian says no, they are subject to rape threats and told to die in a fire, or of cancer?

Do you think it's blatant misogyny that men with penises threaten women with extreme violence and death when they don't get their own way??

Can you explain to me exactly what "woman" means, without once mentioning heels, dresses, make up, femininity, or different brains???

blackberryfairy · 23/01/2018 15:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TeenTimesTwo · 23/01/2018 15:23

I'm a 50 year old woman.

I know I'm a woman because I have all the biological bits of a woman.
I

  • haven't given birth
  • wear trousers
  • don't wear make up or high heeled shoes
  • worked in a 'male' industry
But I am still a woman because my biology determines that I am one.

OP Genuinely I am asking, what makes a 'trans woman' a 'woman' in your understanding?

Datun · 23/01/2018 15:23

You've muddled up two things that need to be considered separately;

Transgenderism
&
Self ID

Exactly.

OP - do you understand the difference?

crunchymint · 23/01/2018 15:23

At 14 years old, I thought I understood how the world worked, and I was wrong. And I was way less protected than many teenagers now days.

Battleax · 23/01/2018 15:23

There's no problem with trans people OP. None at all.

The problem comes when you abandon any organised system for determining who is male and who is female; who is able bodied and who is not; who belongs to which race etc

Because there are good, practical, reasons for needing to prove these things sometimes and the proof needs to have integrity and authority. Because differentiated schemes and services are needed for different groups.

RedToothBrush · 23/01/2018 15:24

I'll just reply to people from now on if they are here in support of trans people and maybe that will help guide it back to the original idea

What makes you think I don't support trans people.

I think self ID will harm many.

Supporting trans people does not equal supporting self ID.

Got that?

There are different groups in the trans community. Not all agree. Not all are served nor represented by trans activists.

This is the problem.

I wish to show support from those in the trans community who are as fed up and worried by the bullshit that is self ID as much as any woman might be.

Is that ok with you?

Or are you just wilfully ignoring the fact that the trans community is not a single monolith and that being worried about a policy is not all about hating trans people.

Because I suspect you are.

Hammerofthetwat · 23/01/2018 15:24
ColinsVeryJolly · 23/01/2018 15:24

100lbtolose

Why not answer this question from NauticalDisaster?

I don't understand what transwomen are women means. Could you explain your point of view using science instead of reductive stereotypes or feelings?

GinAndSonic · 23/01/2018 15:26

A man called Shirley and wearing a dress is still a man, no matter how many people humour him and refer to him as "her".

Of course I fully support Shirley's right to wear whatever they want and to use whatever name they want to use. I might even use female pronouns for them out of politeness and kindness. But if Shirley is the counsellor at my rape crisis centre I'm not going to want to sit alone in a room with them and discuss my rape. My gran won't want Shirley to shower them. My 6yo daughter doesn't want to see their dick in a communal changing area.

Shirley needs to leave women's spaces for women and instead consider that they aren't in fact a woman, but a man who does not conform to masculine stereotypes associated with the male sex.

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 15:26

Im genuinely curious - As you know how reproduction works, how do you explain this in a non-transphobic way?

BertieBotts · 23/01/2018 15:26

But what is the point of a pro trans thread if not for discussion? You can make a pro whatever you want thread of course but it would be a bit strange to basically post something like "I love cupcakes. Doesn't everyone else think cupcakes are great?" and expect people to respond with "Oh yes. I totally agree with you. They are amazing." etc.

When all the replies agree, then the thread is boring. It's not a conversation. It's a facebook post with "likes". If you wanted to post about cupcakes, you'd probably make a post like "What's your favourite cupcake flavour?" or "Share your best cupcake recipes and tips" or even "AIBU to think cupcakes are better than full sized cakes?"

Make a trans support thread, an awareness raising thread, make a "transgender rights are a feminist issue because..." thread but just saying "I think X is great" isn't really a conversation.

If you genuinely don't understand why anybody would not be pro trans rights, maybe that would be a useful angle to start from?

stitchglitched · 23/01/2018 15:27

What exactly is a 'pro-trans' thread? One where facts and reality aren't allowed and nobody is allowed to question the current trans ideology? Are you aware that there are actually a lot of trans individuals who object to the current rhetoric and proposals for self ID? Are they 'anti-trans' too?

It would help if you actually answered a couple of questions you've been asked such as what do you mean by transwomen are women, and the fact that you probably can't come up with an answer that makes sense should probably tell you something. This is a serious issue. Women's much needed and hard fought for sex based protections are being eroded and it deserves a bit more thought than 'yay lets have a happy trans thread and the voices of concerned women are not allowed.' Are you seriously 40?

TinyRick · 23/01/2018 15:28

It reminds me a lot of the really horrendous backlash against gay people when it was really bad a couple of decades ago- a lot of the same rhetoric going on

Hummus Are you ready for the backlash from gay people (especially actual real lesbians)? It's brewing...

ladyballs · 23/01/2018 15:28

Goady.

GreenSeededGrape · 23/01/2018 15:28

Well said @Gin

RedToothBrush · 23/01/2018 15:28

I bet the point of the thread is to get some MNetters saying things that can be accused of being transphobic.

Xenophile · 23/01/2018 15:29

If you support self-ID then you don't support trans people anyway. And you certainly don't support women.

Self-ID will deeply harm trans people because it will allow people who wish to behave badly towards women and transwomen to ID as trans, and no one will have any recourse at all, because you will be able to be whatever you say you are, no matter your behaviour or outlook.

Datun · 23/01/2018 15:30

I suspect the OP (with no posting history), is hoping for some nasty, mean feminists to say something vitriolic that can be tweeted.

How many is that over the last few weeks, four?

That doesn't work OP. Because we're not nasty.

We fully support transwomen Who were born men with gender dysphoria.

We don't support self ID.

SpartacusReality · 23/01/2018 15:31

I don't believe in gender, but I am not anti trans people. I don't believe in religion, but I am not anti religious people. I think religious people should be allowed to follow whatever religion they choose, as long as it does not harm anyone else (which is admittedly where the point of contention usually comes in). Equally, someone can consider themselves trans if they want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. However if a religious person expects me to say that I believe in god, and to make changes to my own life to adapt to their religious wishes, then I am going to have an issue with that.