Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Break it down for me?

1000 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
47
R0wantrees · 23/07/2021 16:41

23 JULY 2021 Telegraph article by Baroness Anne Jenkin,

'Why I changed my mind about trans self-identification
There is huge fear in many quarters over speaking out, but debate and dialogue is not just necessary but essential'
(extract)
"Recently, however, I find myself increasingly at odds with the doctrines from organisations such as Stonewall, with which that I previously had such common cause with. As I have read and looked more closely, I have realised that changes were slipping through without proper scrutiny, because people like me had been unquestioning about progress on equalitiesies.

When the Conservative Party proposed changing the law on gender recognition in 2015, I didn’t see any great problem. I support those people with gender dysphoria who feel they must identify as the opposite sex. Like most people, I understood that this was to cater for relatively few in society who had chosen to commit to sex- reassignment surgery.

But the proposed legislation would actually mean that anyone who merely states that they feel they are the opposite sex must be accorded the rights of the sex they choose: no surgery, no hormones, no gender dysphoria diagnosis required. Stonewall claims around 600,000 people in the UK identify as trans or non-binary. So now we have a conflict of rights, between those of trans-women and those of women and girls.

Most of my working life has revolved around championing women. As co-founder of Women2Win, promoting women in Parliament and public life, is at the heart of what I stand for. I also care deeply about the wider issues of women’s rights and equalities.

Concerned voices are growing louder: the sudden dramatic increase in teenage girls presenting with rapid-onset gender dysphoria; children taking puberty blockers and setting in motion a cascade of interventions that will leave them sterile and in life-long need of medical treatment; fundamental women’s rights being abandoned.

Overwhelmingly, there is deep concern over the #NoDebate stance and the cries of “‘bigot”,’, “‘TERF” ’ and “‘transphobe”’ that accompany any attempt to discuss the issues. Countless women have been “‘cancelled” ’ for expressing mainstream views on biological realism. In fact, just this week, JK Rowling, refusing to be intimidated, has faced bomb threats on social media.

There is huge fear in many quarters over speaking out, but debate and dialogue is not just necessary but essential. This is not a “‘culture wars”’ issue. The cancellation of the terms “‘woman”’ and “‘girl”’ in public policy will have disastrous consequences. Where rights collide, there must be open discussion, inquiryenquiry and compromise. Gay marriage, abortion rights and medical ethics were not smuggled onto the statute book by stealth.

No doubt I will now be vilified for declaring myself to be “‘gender critical”, but I am not just standing up for the rights of tens of millions of women and girls but speaking for the vast majority who are either still unaware of what has been happening to our equality laws or are too scared themselves to say anything."
<a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20210723074539/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/23/changed-mind-trans-self-identification/amp/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210723074539/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/23/changed-mind-trans-self-identification/amp/

Twitter twitter.com/Baronessjenkin/status/1418560541820440579

Helleofabore · 23/07/2021 23:52

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9819631/I-sexually-assaulted-womens-prison-fellow-inmate-male-genitalia.html

The article from Julie Bindel’s interview with Amy, the woman in the JR against the MoJ.

R0wantrees · 24/07/2021 09:59

23rd July 2021 Scotsman
'Young women's cruel ageism towards 'old lady feminists' leaves us easy prey for sexism and misogyny – Susan Dalgety'

(extract)
"In the wake of Tuesday’s rally in Glasgow, organised by For Women Scotland and in support of Marion Millar, the woman recently charged under the Communications Act for tweets she made in 2019, some young women took to Twitter to denounce the protesters variously as fat, ugly and old.

As one of the 300 women there, I took their insults personally, especially when I saw some of the pictures from the day. So, I am (slightly) overweight and don’t conform to today’s beauty aesthetics – my lips don’t pout and I don’t know how to use eyeliner. But old? That threw me. When did ageing become a crime? In the summer of 2021, it seems. (continues)

And along the way, you will have benefited from the changes in society secured by those old lady feminists. Because it was those women, the very people you now scoff at, who fought for – and won – domestic abuse shelters, rape crisis centres, equal pay legislation, the right to choose.

It was those women who burned their bra so you could choose to wear Victoria Secret (ironically, of course). They marched with their brothers to secure gay rights.

They protested wars, nuclear weapons, climate change. And they have lived experience of the intersectionality of class, race, disablity, sexual orientation and yes, age, that affects all women. These old lady feminists changed your world for the better, and they are still doing it.

Frustrated by the snide ageism, I asked Twitter for examples of inspirational women over 50 and was overwhelmed by suggestions, which included politicians Joanna Cherry, Johann Lamont and Emma Nicholson; actors Judi Dench and Sheila Hancock; feminists Bea Campbell, Judie Bindel and Germaine Greer, the academic and broadcaster Mary Beard and tennis guru Judy Murray. Tennis legend Billie Jean King, writer and philanthropist JK Rowling, and of course the incomparable Dolly Parton who turned 75 this week. Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, helpfully provided her list of 50 Scottish women over 50, which includes the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon.

Others, rightly, offered up their mother or grandmother as their hero and one woman suggested “every women over the age of 50… we are the bedrock of the world”.(continues)

We all have much to learn from each other, because underneath our skin, whether it's wrinkled with age or glows with youthfulness, we are all young women. We are all still finding our way in this world. We may disagree on some issues, on tactics, on tone, but we are all in the sisterhood.

So, young girl feminists, set aside your prejudices, reach out to us old ladies. You may be surprised to find out how much fun we can be. Learning how to make a mean martini is one of life's vital lessons. And remember – divided, women are easy prey to the misogyny and sexism that still characterises our society. United, we are invincible."

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/young-womens-cruel-ageism-towards-old-lady-feminists-leaves-us-easy-prey-for-sexism-and-misogyny-susan-dalgety-3320203

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/young-womens-cruel-ageism-towards-old-lady-feminists-leaves-us-easy-prey-for-sexism-and-misogyny-susan-dalgety-3320203

R0wantrees · 25/07/2021 12:52

Important current thread includes links to previously established DBS/identity loopholes and attempts by FRW women to have those risks mitigated

OP ItsAllGoingToBeFine wrote,

"Sex offenders free to abuse children after changing ID

Thu 22-Jul-21
Times:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-offenders-free-to-abuse-children-after-changing-id-bpdlx59p0

I know a while ago a MNer did some hard work chasing the DBS people about if changing name / sex created a loophole.

And yes, yes it does.

In the most serious cases men barred for life from working with children used their new name to gain employment in schools and homes where they committed multiple further offences.

One, who worked as an au pair, was jailed last year after police in Belgium uncovered a paedophile ring with nine million child abuse images. Another is in custody in Spain suspected of abusing 36 young girls at a school.

Both were British teachers convicted of child abuse and placed on the sex offenders register. Each changed his name by deed poll, acquired a passport and in one case clearance from the disclosure and barring service (DBS) to work with children. The Times has been shown a copy of the DBS certificate.

A source close to the DBS said it was aware of cases in which registered sex offenders had, by changing their name, gained DBS certificates clearing them to work with children. It wanted to find a way to “close this loophole”.

Sarah Champion, the Rotherham MP, has been urging the government to close “this gaping hole in safeguarding”. The Home Office announced this month a “time-limited review” of name changes “to better understand whether current processes are being exploited”.

Potential solutions include placing a digital marker on the files of all registered sex offenders at the DVLA and the passport office, or to remove the do-it-yourself option for the name change process."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4303105-Sex-offenders-free-to-abuse-children-after-changing-ID

R0wantrees · 25/07/2021 14:39

Women.... please put women first, thanks.

Current thread, OP TheShadowyFeminist wrote
Fri 23-Jul-21

"Posie Parker's latest - Glasgow
YouTube link

I wilted in the heat so missed the pub afterwards. But PP's comments on the 'fawning' I'm finding interesting. Because even at a meeting of women who are fighting for their rights, and the right to say no to any male, irrespective of identity, being given access to female only services/space/provision/sport etc. it seems that female socialisation kicks in when a male wears a dress.

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

I think the 'fawning' is something that we al need to reflect on & work out why this is how some of us behave over someone who (as far as I'm aware) has failed to acknowledge their part in writing guidance for schools that breach female children's rights under the UNCRC.

I think we all need to 'be more Posie' in life & activism."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4303993-posie-parker-s-latest-glasgow

NB refers specifically to Dr Debbie Hayton

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 10:27

Telegraph
Patient safety fears as NHS allows trans sex offenders in female-only wards
Concern over guidance which says people can choose which shower and lavatory facilities they use based on the gender they identify with
By
Hayley Dixon and Ewan Somerville
2 August 2021
"Male-born sex offenders who self-identify as women can be placed on female-only NHS wards, hospital trusts have said in guidance." (continues)
archive.vn/cWKxb#selection-1097.1-1173.129

Current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4313163-never-thought-i-d-post-on-here-but-males-on-female-hospital-wards-wtf

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4313090-Telegraph-Patient-safety-fears-as-NHS-allows-trans-sex-offenders-in-female-only-wards

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 03/08/2021 10:47

Thanks for all your wonderful research R0wantrees and Helleofabore.

This thread is such an invaluable resource.

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 11:20

Mulletsaremisunderstood Thank you. It's an important collation of the work by many women. I'm happy to help as I can in re-establishing Safeguarding and women's sex-based rights.

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 11:40

Current thread concerning Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service hearing of allegations against Dr Helen Webberley (Gender GP)

"Allegation
The tribunal will inquire into the allegation that, between March 2016 and November 2016, Dr Webberley failed to provide good clinical care to three patients, and that in September 2016 she prescribed inappropriately to two patients.

The tribunal will also inquire into the allegation that, on 10 January 2017, during an unannounced CQC inspection of Dr Matt Limited where Dr Webberley was the Safeguarding Lead, she was unaware of, and had never seen, the safeguarding policy.

The tribunal will further inquire into allegations that Dr Webberley’s conduct was dishonest in relation to information she provided to the GMC and the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, and in her failure to provide relevant information to a pharmacy.

The tribunal will inquire into the allegation that, when acting as the principal provider of the Gender GP website, Dr Webberley attempted to avoid the regulatory framework of the United Kingdom,

The tribunal will also inquire into the allegation that, on 5 October 2018 at Mid Wales (Merthyr Tydfil) Magistrates’ Court, Dr Webberley was convicted of two counts in relation to the carrying on or managing of an independent medical agency without being registered under the Care Standards Act 2000, and was fined £12,000."

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-helen-webberley-jul-21

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4288795-Helen-Webberley

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 12:59

31/07/2021 'AIBU To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women'

YABU 2%
YANBU 98%
total votes 2332

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4310759-To-think-Laurel-Hubbard-should-not-be-competing-against-other-women

Helleofabore · 06/08/2021 14:02

bumping this thread for new readers.

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 21:19

Whose Body Is It
Sexuality Erasure w/ Joey Brite and Mr Menno
23 May 2021

Helleofabore · 18/08/2021 11:52

bump

Helleofabore · 30/08/2021 10:00

Adding this link (will see if I can archive it)

twitter.com/mforstater/status/1432079352531988489?s=21

Maya Forstater has tweeted a thread detailing some of the violence supported by some trans activists.

It is very long (and some now deleted) but most has been captured between these two archives.

archive.is/6Yqnk

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210829235035/twitter.com/MForstater/status/1432128528569536528" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210829235035/twitter.com/MForstater/status/1432128528569536528

It is very interesting to see the reaction to Stonewall’s statement about them not supporting violence and dehumanising language and actions. Of course, that was long before Nancy Kelly, CEO, likened women believing sex should take priority over gender to anti-semites.

Helleofabore · 30/08/2021 10:08

This thread is worth reading as it shows the significance in including males who identify as women in statistics about female populations.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4333732-5-of-participants-in-womens-prison-research-were-trans-Lancet-journal-refuses-to-publish-letter-questioning-statistics

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(21)00082-1/fulltext

And of course, it needs to be highlighted that pages back we posted university studies detailing the differences in skull and brain between the sexes so this was also not considered by this study published in lancet because that would need to distinguish between sexes.

Helleofabore · 30/08/2021 10:17

The very brave Lisa Townsend, newly elected Surrey Police Commissioner has reported being contacted by many women regarding their rights and safety.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9915637/amp/New-Surrey-Police-Commissioner-attacks-Stonewall-promoting-dangerous-transgender-ideology.html

The elected Police and Crime Commissioner overseeing Surrey police has launched an unprecedented attack on the Stonewall lobby group, accusing it of promoting a dangerous transgender ideology that puts women at risk.

Lisa Townsend, the newly elected Conservative commissioner for Surrey, says she's been inundated with emails and messages from women frightened that female-only spaces, including women's refuges and toilets, are being opened up to people who 'identify' as women even if they have male genitalia.

And Leicester Police Commissioner supports her.

www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/leicestershire-pcc-divides-internet-controversial-5832423

Leicester’s Police and Crime Commission has sparked debate on Twitter with a post about trans women’s rights to access female spaces.

Rupert Matthews, the Police and Crime Commissioner for Leicestershire, tweeted in support of his Surrey counterpart, Lisa Townsend.

He wrote: “I couldn’t agree more with my PCC colleague from Surrey @LisaTownsend. We must support everyone in an appropriate way but we cannot allow a ‘one size fits all’ approach to gender identity that could put women and girls at risk.”

And Lincolnshire

www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/lincolnshire-police-crime-commissioner-says-5831779

Police and Crime Commissioner for Lincolnshire Marc Jones has supported an article that criticises the role LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall plays in helping the police.

Helleofabore · 05/09/2021 11:25

This website has been launched this week with a view to provide resources for being able to understand some aspects and terminology of the debate around trans rights and women’s rights.

gcritical.org/introduction/

anaily · 12/09/2021 14:17

Thanks to everyone linking this thread. On what pages can i find specific details of how a birth certificate is dangerous?

Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 14:42

@anaily

Thanks to everyone linking this thread. On what pages can i find specific details of how a birth certificate is dangerous?
I beg your pardon? A birth certificate being dangerous?

Or a birth certificate being used to justify access to single sex spaces or to a position set aside for a particular sex where the person should not be allowed access?

Please clarify what you are asking.

Or are you asking about paper cuts being dangerous?

anaily · 12/09/2021 14:58

The second one lol. How often are transgender people flashing their birth certificate around to access spaces to commit crimes.

RedDogsBeg · 12/09/2021 15:37

Hellofabore, just ignore anaily, they are being pathetically disingenuous and faux innocent, not posting in good faith, not worth your time.

Datun · 12/09/2021 15:56

@anaily

The second one lol. How often are transgender people flashing their birth certificate around to access spaces to commit crimes.
Karen White for one.
R0wantrees · 12/09/2021 16:22

How often are transgender people flashing their birth certificate around to access spaces to commit crimes.

The more responsible question to consider is the extent to which male sex-offenders exploit name/ identity document change loopholes to evade monitoring.

27th February 2021 Mail on Sunday
'Thousands of sex criminals could be working with children – after changing their names for just £15, warns former Home Secretary Sajid Javid
Ex-Home Secretary Sajid Javid calls for changes to tackle child sexual abuse
900 convicted sex offenders have paid £15 to change their names by deed poll
He calls for school nurse revival to make it easier for children to report abuse
(extract)
"Thousands of sex offenders could be working with children because they have changed their names by deed poll to escape detection, according to a hard-hitting new report by former Home Secretary Sajid Javid." (continues)

Alarmingly, the report says at least 900 convicted sex offenders – and possibly thousands – could be operating in jobs that bring them into contact with young people because they have taken the simple expedient of paying £15 to change their names by deed poll.

At no stage is an applicant required to disclose their criminal history – which the report recommends should change.

It says the current stipulation that those on the sex offenders register must tell the police if they change their names within three days of doing so ‘is essentially an honours system with the onus on the individual to keep the police up to date… over 900 offenders may have changed their names without notifying the police and are now living under the radar’

The report adds that as the 900 offenders ‘only represent data released by 16 of the 43 police forces’ then ‘it is likely then that the actual figure is far higher and thousands of registered sex offenders are off the radar.

‘The worst-case scenario outcome is not unfeasible: that some of this number have acquired fresh names and are working or living alongside children. We must locate these individuals and safeguard children they may have access to. We recommend the Home Office commissions an urgent inquiry into this matter.’ (continues)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9410099/Thousands-sex-criminals-working-children-changing-names-warns-Sajid-Javid.html

Relevant thread on potential impact to DBS checking from p2
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4208155-The-Times-Law-section-Thursday-1st-April-Trans-judge-wants-a-more-diverse-judiciary?pg=2

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 12/09/2021 16:30

This thread is so valuable. What happens when it gets to 1000 posts? Can it be marked somewhere so it doesn't get lost, @StevenTechMumsnet?

R0wantrees · 12/09/2021 16:43

Current thread

Wbeezer wrote,
"I think everyone should watch this Bertrand Russell clip once a week until they come to their senses :
youtu.be/ihaB8AFOhZo

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4267481-Ive-just-been-called-unscientific-for-saying-that-you-cannot-change-sex

(I concur)

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.