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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Break it down for me?

1000 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Helleofabore · 12/09/2021 17:40

@anaily

Having seen your posts on other threads, I’d suggest reading this thread thoroughly. You seem to have some major misunderstandings about the point of view of many of the regular posters on this board.

anaily · 12/09/2021 22:17

My understanding is: men are men, women are women, that is fixed and there is no deviation from that. You want strict sex segregation. Banning transgender people from those spaces. Which i get. What i don't get is how are birth certificates dangerous?

Datun · 12/09/2021 23:14

@anaily

My understanding is: men are men, women are women, that is fixed and there is no deviation from that. You want strict sex segregation. Banning transgender people from those spaces. Which i get. What i don't get is how are birth certificates dangerous?
Third time...

The MoJ have a policy that says any man who is legally female (f on birth certificate) gets automatic entry to the female estate.

anaily · 12/09/2021 23:35

That's around 5000 people in a population of 67 million, of that 5000 how many are criminals?

OldCrone · 12/09/2021 23:41

@anaily

That's around 5000 people in a population of 67 million, of that 5000 how many are criminals?
So you don't agree with self-ID for a GRC then? Because with self-ID that 5000 could become about 500,000. And it would be pretty attractive to criminals who would prefer to serve their sentence in a women's prison.
anaily · 12/09/2021 23:47

Those 500,000 can wait 2 years to get the same grc.

OldCrone · 12/09/2021 23:53

Those 500,000 can wait 2 years to get the same grc.

At the moment most of them can't get a GRC because they wouldn't get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 00:02

So, provide us the proof again that these males who transition are less likely to commit crime at the same rate or similar to other males? Why should these males be considered exempt from the safeguarding processes that all males are subject to?

By the way, no one has kept a record of who has a GRC and the MoJ has admitted they don’t know how many males are in the female prisons in a recent court case about another woman abused and assaulted by a male in the female prison estate. (Ie. Not Karen white, another male)

StevenTechMumsnet · 14/09/2021 01:53

Hi there @vivariumvivariumsvivaria I think what people normally do when they want to keep a thread alive and running is start a continuation thread with a link to the original in the first post. I'm not sure if there's any formal mechanism other than that. But I'll check and ask someone to post here if there is.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 14/09/2021 10:23

Thanks, @StevenTechMumsnet.

Helleofabore · 15/09/2021 07:30

This is an old study done on ability to read sex from faces.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8474840/

Sex discrimination: how do we tell the difference between male and female faces?
V Bruce et al. Perception. 1993.

^ Abstract*

*People are remarkably accurate (approaching ceiling) at deciding whether faces are male or female, even when cues from hair style, makeup, and facial hair are minimised.^

R0wantrees · 17/09/2021 09:06

'Kate Coleman reads a statement from a former female prisoner about gender self-ID'
(the woman who brought the Judicial Review)
8 Sept 2021
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfHRtjPSBi4

"Being in prison with male prisoners you always feel on edge. You know something can happen at any time. We know that they're not women. They're physically threatening and aggressive.

I was sexually assaulted and I'm not the only woman who has been.
They haven't had surgery and they exposed themselves.

One of them had been told he couldn't shower at the same time as us women. He made a formal complaint and said that this was a breach of his human rights. So now he is allowed to shower with us and because he now has that right the other males have that right too. There's only a shower curtain between us, and he moves the curtain so we can all see his penis when he's washing himself or shaving his legs. This is disgusting and I think it is disgusting that the prison allows this.

But we can't complain about anything. These males are very well protected and it feels like our rights as women just don't count. We have to call them she and her and have to use their female names.
If we don't we are punished and lose our enhanced prisoner or D category status.

It's horrible to do that to women in prison. I can't understand how anyone can say that imprisoning males alongside women is the right thing to do.

The prisoner who attacked me was convicted of the most serious sexual offenses against girls and still has his penis.

How can the government say that putting him in prison with women is the right thing to do? It's not.

I'm out of prison now but I think about all the other women still in prison who have to live with these males. This is dangerous, disgusting and wrong.

and i would just add if it's lawful to imprison males who've been convicted of rape alongside women who are the victims of sexual violence, that the law has to change."

Helleofabore · 17/09/2021 09:58

Here is a short thread of the growing number of young women on tiktok who are fighting back against the push on their boundaries.

twitter.com/wimps93/status/1438556327912038400?s=21

It is useful to understand that the next generation are not a homogeneous group and those activists saying ridiculous things like ‘you are just old and uninformed and the younger generation think differently’ might need to re-evaluate.

R0wantrees · 17/09/2021 10:52

Ed Davey (Lib Dem leader) was interviewed by Justin Webb on Radio 4, Today. Davey confirmed his position that women and girls should have no single sex spaces.

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4351322-Ed-Davy-on-R4-Today-there-should-not-be-safe-places-for-women

July 16th 2020
Ed Davey on LBC was unequivocal having listened to women's concerns about female single sex spaces being mixed sex and who feel threatened,

"I don't agree with them"

He also thinks women just "don't understand the facts and experience [of transwomen]"

twitter.com/LBC/status/1283844809405464576

Break it down for me?
Helleofabore · 18/09/2021 03:20

www.ranzcp.org/news-policy/policy-and-advocacy/position-statements/gender-dysphoria

The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists have now updated their guidance.

They are now warning that there is NOT ENOUGH evidence to recommend affirming only treatments or indeed any particular treatment plan. They now say that underlying health issues should be treated at the same time. And warn that medicalisation of children and teens be very careful and thoroughly explored considering the ‘paucity’ of evidence at this time.

Interestingly, they indicate that there are a couple of long term studies under way which will be interesting to see when they are published. One is a longitudinal study on trans patients in Australia.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2021 08:05

Bump

Helleofabore · 29/09/2021 13:56

A treasure trove of studies relating to whether there is conclusive improvement to transgender people's lives after medicalised treatment paths can be found in this Medium article by JLCederblom (Posted by NecessaryScene on a thread today).

medium.com/@JLCederblom/the-lukewarm-perjury-of-jack-turban-a85903109051

There is an abridged version as well.

It is actually a run down of the evidence presented by Jack Turban's Declaration in Support of Plaintiff's Motion for a Preliminary Injunction in Brandt et al vs Rutledge et al in the US District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas.

In it is this review listed as footnote 15. Baker, K. E., et al, (2021) Hormone Therapy, Mental Health and Quality of Life Among Transgender People: A Systematic Review. Journal of the Endocrine Society.

academic.oup.com/jes/article/5/4/bvab011/6126016

I was interested particularly in this finding.

Quality of Life

Among adolescents, a mixed-gender prospective cohort (n = 50) showed no difference in QOL scores after a year of endocrine interventions, which included combinations of GnRH analogues and estrogen or testosterone formulations [30]. No study found that hormone therapy decreased QOL scores. We conclude that hormone therapy may improve QOL among transgender people. The strength of evidence for this conclusion is low due to concerns about bias in study designs, imprecision in measurement because of small sample sizes, and confounding by factors such as gender-affirming surgery status.

And this under Depression

Among adolescents, 2 mixed-gender prospective cohorts (n = 50 and n = 23, respectively) showed improvements in depression scores after 1 year of treatment with GnRH analogues and estrogen or testosterone formulations (both P < 0.001) [30, 38]. Another prospective study reported that BDI scores improved almost by half among adolescents (n = 41) after a mean of 1.88 years of treatment with GnRH analogues to delay puberty (P = 0.004) [34]. The overall improvement after several subsequent years of testosterone or estrogen therapy in this cohort (n = 32) was smaller, however, resulting in no significant change from baseline [35]. No study found that hormone therapy increased depression.

Anxiety

Among adolescents, 1 prospective study saw mean anxiety scores in a mixed-gender group (n = 23) improve from 33.0 ± 7.2 to 18.5 ± 8.4 after 1 year (P < 0.001) [38], but another reported no changes in anxiety after approximately 2 years of puberty delay treatment with GnRH analogues and 4 years of hormone therapy (n = 32) [35].

Suicide

The risk of bias for this study was serious due to the difficulty of identifying appropriate comparison groups and uncontrolled confounding by surgery status and socioeconomic variables such as unemployment. We cannot draw any conclusions on the basis of this single study about whether hormone therapy affects death by suicide among transgender people.

This review was published in April 2021 and if it has been posted previously, apologies for the repeat.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2021 18:07

Just a reminder that this thread is still available too.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2877199-Gender-Critical-Reference-Thread?watched=1&msgid=111302246#111302246

Bellendejour · 02/10/2021 22:55

TW CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis who labelled rape victims bigoted for wanting care to be within a single sex setting
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bigoted-people-may-be-challenged-comments-by-trans-head-of-edinburgh-rape-crisis-sparks-controversy-xdcpfr0cv

Detailed MUST READ investigation on Glinners site
grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/mridrul-wadha-sacro-and-the-14-million
www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19509343.outcry-plan-educate-bigoted-rape-survivors-trans-rights/

Left the SNP (had joined via a woman only shortlist) “after MSPs overwhelmingly backed a law to allow victims of rape and sexual assault to choose the sex rather than gender of the person examining them.”
www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19509343.outcry-plan-educate-bigoted-rape-survivors-trans-rights/

Has aligned GC thinkers with fascists
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/protesters-against-gender-reform-give-
platform-to-fascists-wknzsvrcl

Also read:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4071477-Mridul-Wadhwa-and-Rape-Crisis-Scotland

Helleofabore · 05/10/2021 11:30

Two prominent transwomen clinicians, one who could led WPATH next year have stated they are against some of the current practices in trans health. Marcy Bowers and Eric Anderson. Particularly fast tracking to hormonal treatments. Article by Abigail Shrier.

bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

Helleofabore · 05/10/2021 11:32

Access to care and frequency of detransition among a cohort discharged by a UK national adult gender identity clinic: retrospective case-note review

Published online by Cambridge University Press: 01 October 2021

R. Hall, L. Mitchell and J. Sachdeva

Conclusions

Service users may have unmet needs. Neurodevelopmental disorders or ACEs suggest complexity requiring consideration during the assessment process. Managing mental ill health and substance misuse during treatment needs optimising. Detransitioning might be more frequent than previously reported.

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-open/article/access-to-care-and-frequency-of-detransition-among-a-cohort-discharged-by-a-uk-national-adult-gender-identity-clinic-retrospective-casenote-review/3F5AC1315A49813922AAD76D9E28F5CB

Helleofabore · 14/10/2021 09:15

Link to Stephen Nolan podcast series about BBC and Stonewall.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09yk1fy

Helleofabore · 19/10/2021 20:59

Lisa Littman has released a small quantitative study on detransitioners.

link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10508-021-02163-w.pdf

Abstract

Sixty-nine percent of the 100 participants were natal female and 31.0% were natal male. Reasons for detransitioning were varied and included: experiencing discrimination (23.0%); becoming more comfortable identifying as their natal sex (60.0%); having concerns about potential medical complications from transitioning (49.0%); and coming to the view that their gender dysphoria was caused by something specific such as trauma, abuse, or a mental health condition (38.0%). Homophobia or difficulty accepting themselves as lesbian, gay, or bisexual was expressed by 23.0% as a reason for transition and subsequent detransition. The majority (55.0%) felt that they did not receive an adequate evaluation from a doctor or mental health professional before starting transition and only 24.0% of respondents informed their clini- cians that they had detransitioned.

Helleofabore · 22/10/2021 08:15

Here is the SEGM dissemination.

twitter.com/segmtweets/status/1450891795718553602?s=21

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