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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sooo Genuwine rejects trans woman's advances and he is in the wrong?

294 replies

80sQueen · 08/01/2018 22:42

Apologies in advance as this is Big Brother related. So watched I clip of the above and was wondering about people's views. As a R&B fan I know that Genuwine is a heterosexual male with, previously married and several children. He goes on BB assuming for the money and has advanced on by trans woman India Willoughby then makes advances towards him and he rejects "her" . She then storms off offended due to this and it is implied he is transphobic as 1. he doesn't want to kiss her and 2. Doesn't recognise her as female. Now I have lots of views about this but found it interesting that apparently this straight male Genuwine has no right to choose of state he is not sexually interested in someone who essentially was a male and is likely to be torn down as homophobic. Ironic given the current topics of sexual harassment that women are rightfully raising. Not sure what I'm asking really just thought it was interesting

OP posts:
Datun · 11/01/2018 07:53

He also had the gall to tell Julie Bindel, a woman who has worked tirelessly on behalf of prostitutes and abused women, that he was frightened of Jenni Murray.

She actually snorted and said what! You don't know you're born!

And yes, the knitting thing.

EmilyHowardsWife · 11/01/2018 07:55

Watching BB - saw India try and "pull" Genuwine. I've had the same reaction when I've rejected my husband's "female" personality, be it sexually or just as a perceived insult in general conversation.
India isn't interested in Genuwine to engage in sex with - he might as well be made of clay. She just wants him to validate her sexy femaleness and when he doesn't she RAGES. Her sexuality really isn't connecting on any level with another person - it's all about the sexy female feelings she has when people do.
Her rage is genuine and she probably held a lot of her temper back for the cameras - they can get very much more hurt and upset than a few sharp words and a flounce. The injury they feel can last for days.

Also I don't see India as Gay or Hetrosexual - I see she has a mental sexual disfunction, I believe she has now turned her sexual attention from women to men as she probably feels very hurt and rejected by her wife and, therefore, all females. Her attention is now to be validated by males (she might also think males are easier to seduce).

One thing I do think India is right about - Courtney is playing Woman Face - he is playing a stereotype of a sexualised bitchy woman for laughs - I don't really enjoy Courtney's act, that's because I've been hurt by the blurring of gender to validate another person's sexuality while ignoring my own. But, unlike India, I know I'm in the minority on that one and will let other people enjoy Courtney's antics and not want to "ban" or stop Courtney in anyway.

I don't agree with India that drag acts invalidate or lessen Trans Women - because that's a whole other Matrix/Rabbit Hole to go into.

Datun · 11/01/2018 08:12

Thanks for that insight EmilyHowardsWife

I must admit, I'm a little confused about India. All the hallmarks of AGP in terms of late transition. But photos of her as a man show him to be very effeminate.

And I know that often the attention of a man will validate someone with AGP, but India seems quite sure that it is men she is after.

I wondered if she had just denied her homosexuality all her life and then got confused about transgenderism.

And yes, I agree about Courtney. I think he comes across as a decent person. And if transgenderism didn't exist, I would probably be a lot more comfortable with it.

I do, however, find the position of both men being at odds with each other, quite interesting. If a little depressing.

EmilyHowardsWife · 11/01/2018 08:23

Datun - I think India is confusing a lot of people especially when put up against Courtney - as most people will see just two men in feminine mode and not see any difference. I mean, what is the real difference between Courtney and India - both femme, one says he's a woman and one says he's a man - how does the general public know the difference between male and female before asking (which would be invalidating for India).

Also what India says may not be the absolute truth - would India turn any of the pretty women down if they showed sexual interest in her!!!! AGP's lie, lie and then lie again. Not just to you and me but to themselves most of all. India's been caught out on her lie about DragPhobia and a few other things - she is shameless.

Datun · 11/01/2018 08:45

EmilyHowardsWife

So you see all the hallmarks of AGP in India? I haven't seen her flirting with the women?

Is it because validation means far more than anything else?

GuardianLions · 11/01/2018 09:26

I don't enjoy Courtney, but I am impressed with Shane's skills. Men actually get turned on by Courtney, question their sexuality (which is Shane's motivation as a gay man who enjoys 'turning' straight men). So basically 'Courtney' is 'woman' - as a performance by and for men.

I think the side-effect of bringing out the 'inner AGP' of straight men is unintended. Shane doesn’t really know what to say when the straight men speak of getting dragged up and having a wank in front of the mirror.

But the uncomfortable thing Courtney exposes for me, is about how it exposes the utter crassness of male sexuality.

It reminds me of the footage you see of male bunnies who hump anything that is furry in approximate rabbit colours and is approximately the right size - even fluffy outdoor mics or stuffed toys. The fact that males of the human species are so unsophisticated that they get so turned on by wigs, make-up, falsies, etc - ie- not human/living, is not edifying or attractive. I find it - well - urgh yuk!.

I think the women suppress the feeling of being 'dissed' and 'out-womanned' by Shane (suppressed feelings are our condition arent they?) to enjoy his clear talent as a performer.

AngryAttackKittens · 11/01/2018 09:28

Oh good, I'm not the only one not buying the idea that India is gay. Reads as classic AGP to me, and yeah, Ginuwine could be any man considered attractive by the rest of the group - he's a prop, basically, from India's perspective.

In terms of the difference between India and Shane/Courtney - self awareness and honestly mostly. The insistence that everyone pretend not to know that India is a man adds an element of gaslighting that tips things over from "this is sexist and a bit annoying" to "get the hell away from me".

UpABitLate · 11/01/2018 09:29

I am not v comfy with drag as it's a caricature and often a nasty one of women, many women aren't but of course when a TW says it makes them uncomfortable that's a different story.

Anyway.

While I'm not super keen I'm also not wildly hating of it, I can see that it's a big part of certain strands of gay male culture and I can also see the appeal of dressing up so entirely as someone else (fancy dress is very freeing) and of course historically I guess it was a way to play with gender / explore feminine side for men in a society which was utterly hostile to the point of illegality. So I can kind of see it even though I'm not keen.

The interesting thing I was thinking last night is that when the guy was saying that when he's dragged up men treat him differently, even though they know he's a man, is that the response is to the trappings of femininity. The signals says "this is a woman" - the hair, makeup, heels, mannerisms etc - even if actually most women never dress or behave like that - more so than actually being a woman does. So the paraphernalia triggers men (and women probably as well) to treat him in a certain way irrespective of the fact they know he's a man. That's fascinating to me.

Of course then men observing this will see it as all about the trappings. They want to be treated a certain way - "as a woman" - and so need to adopt the trappings in order to trigger this behaviour. The fact that it works if the man says he's a man as well must be v disheartening.

Plus of course women get treated differently whether or not they have all that stuff on, because they are identified as women, but it's not necessarily the same way as the heels and glamour trigger which seems to be a thing all in itself and unisex to a point. It's the low pay, the expectation of shitwork, the being talked over, the not listening, the day to day graft of being a woman that is different. Those are not the things triggered by "glamour".

No wonder many TW are confused.

Thehairthebod · 11/01/2018 09:31

I thought India was just a feminine gay man who has been lied to and told they can become a woman? I think she is definitely attracted to men isn't she?

True though, she isn't actually attracted to Ginuwine, for her, he is just there to validate her status as 'woman'. I'm not really sure why she targetted him?

EmilyHowardsWife · 11/01/2018 09:32

Validation of being female IS her sexuality. Difficult to understand as the majority of people are turned on by another person and their sexual characteristics. Not the sexual characteristics on your own body - most people are not turned on by looking at themselves (you might be dressed for sex and know what you are wearing is going to be arousing for your partner, which gives you a thrill - but this is not getting turned on by yourself).
Also, India would be very wary of acting the way she did with Genuwine, with a woman housemate - she knows well enough that would be seen as sexual harassment (especially in today's climate of young women being harassed by older men). I think that she may just be self aware to know that would play out badly and dent her identity as a real women by the general public. India I think, knows deep down that the masses would just see a man being sexually aggressive to a woman

Another point is after all the hormones and surgery she probably doesn't see sex with women as worth anything as her sexual performance is now compromised - because she would have to work at giving the woman an orgasm and the woman would try and give her an orgasm which would be difficult (if not impossible) for India. Much better to get a man to use your body with no real effort from you, just lie back and fake it - soak up that lovely validation afterwards.

AngryAttackKittens · 11/01/2018 09:33

I'm finding that Shane as Shane is fine but Shane as Courtney makes me roll my eyes, partly at him but even more so at the other men's responses to him. Like Guardian says, it's the fact that they're not attracted to women so much as they're attracted to a set of props that read as "time to fuck" for them. Which means that's basically what they think women are, things that you fuck.

I wonder if part of the reason none of them are pursuing the glamor model more aggressively is that she's not in performance mode a lot of the time and is wandering around just being a person rather then being the Page 3 girl fantasy they were hoping for.

HeyRoly · 11/01/2018 09:37

I agree that India doesn't necessarily want to have sex with men per se, but wanting to be desired by men is all part of the constant seeking of validation of herself that she does.

And also, I think the idea of sex with a man and taking on the "female" role during sex can be an aspect of AGP - even in straight men who transition. Someone I know who transitioned a few years ago, classic AGP, frequently makes silly innuendo jokes on Facebook about "meat/sausage in my mouth" (and yeah, it's pretty tiresome).

AngryAttackKittens · 11/01/2018 09:39

I always wonder if David Walliams has a touch of AGP that he's controlling better than most or if he's just been exposed to people who were, because Emily Howard really was spot on as a character. Imagine if someone tried to introduce that as a new character now the howls of narcissistic injury that would result.

EmilyHowardsWife · 11/01/2018 09:43

AngryAttackKittens the men are not going after the younger pretty women because they are very wary of being accused of sexual harassment. Any comment section or forum talking about the latest sex scandals and you always get men saying - what is the difference between harmless flirting and harmful aggressive sexual attention, because we don't know - so we won't do anything (at least in public, which BB is).
Also men are the ones that have invented the standards of feminity that women need to perform to be accepted - so of course they can outperform women on this - they know exactly what triggers them sexually. I think its big boobs, bottom and simpering.

Thehairthebod · 11/01/2018 09:44

Emily your posts are really insightful, thank you.

I do find it depressing how the guys are so mesmerised by Courtney for all the reasons above. However, having said that, as a straight woman, I myself find myself very drawn to Shane/Courtney in both their guises, so part of it could just be that he has a very magnetic personality?

Thehairthebod · 11/01/2018 09:45

God yes, Little Britain really wasn't that long ago was it? Emily Howard's character would be seen as really transphobic now wouldn't it? Mind you, they did quite a lot of cross dressing in that series didn't they?

GuardianLions · 11/01/2018 09:48

I think there is white entitlement going on with India . Did you see India's attention-seeking behaviour during John Barnes' performance (that CBB editors seemed to very pointedly edit them out of -although India was in most of the shots of other people). It might have been more tricks of editing but India looked pissed off when John Barnes afterwards slow-danced with another woman.

I wonder if India is one of the bi-sexual AGPs - who basically live as a heterosexual man but dress up and pull men 'as a woman'.

AngryAttackKittens · 11/01/2018 09:50

It's not just that though, with the Courtney persona, it's the acting out of the sort of always up for it attitude towards sex that women usually only adopt if we're being paid to do so (think strippers, porn, etc). Porn culture has trained men to respond to that behavior like Pavlov's dogs, and since everyone knows that Courtney is actually a man and playing along is part of the persona they're not worried about being accused of harassment. Drag queens and AGPs perform that kind of sexuality without having to be paid to do it because it turns them on in a way that it doesn't for actual women.

AngryAttackKittens · 11/01/2018 09:53

And India is of course seething because attempting to duplicate the same behavior that's triggering the Pavlovian response in the younger men when Courtney does it isn't working for him. Being unable to accept that your age limits the extent to which that crap will work when you do it seems to be baked into AGP .

busyboysmum · 11/01/2018 09:53

*But the uncomfortable thing Courtney exposes for me, is about how it exposes the utter crassness of male sexuality.

It reminds me of the footage you see of male bunnies who hump anything that is furry in approximate rabbit colours and is approximately the right size - even fluffy outdoor mics or stuffed toys. The fact that males of the human species are so unsophisticated that they get so turned on by wigs, make-up, falsies, etc - ie- not human/living, is not edifying or attractive. I find it - well - urgh yuk!.*

This is so true Guardians.

I'm not sure what age I was when I realised that men would fuck any woman. They might not hang around afterwards for any woman but their sexuality is so base that they would fuck them.

As that point I lost any interest in men TBH. Although I am still happily married and have sons so I don't mean in that way, I'm not a man hater per se. I just mean I lost the feeling that I had to modify my behaviour so they don't find me unattractive. It was incredibly freeing.

AngryAttackKittens · 11/01/2018 10:00

It's always seemed odd to me that some women work so hard to appeal to men and worry so much that men won't want them if they don't for the same reason. A lot of them would fuck a puddle of mud if they could figure out a way to make it work. They stick their dicks in vacuum cleaners. Really, honestly, 99% of the "oh I wouldn't shag her because (insert incredibly picky details here)" crap is performative.

GuardianLions · 11/01/2018 10:03

I have had so many "spot on" "hear, hear" moments in this thread at the moment I can't keep up!

Datun · 11/01/2018 10:04

EmilyHowardsWife

Do you have any insight as to where AGP comes from?

I've read several narratives that seem to point towards the female parent? But I'm loathe to speculate further. Because, you know, women get the blame for everything.

AngryAttackKittens · 11/01/2018 10:08

In the sense that it was in their poor mother's stolen tights or knickers that they had their first wank?

AgonyBeetle · 11/01/2018 10:12

Validation of being female IS her sexuality. Difficult to understand as the majority of people are turned on by another person and their sexual characteristics. Not the sexual characteristics on your own body - most people are not turned on by looking at themselves (you might be dressed for sex and know what you are wearing is going to be arousing for your partner, which gives you a thrill - but this is not getting turned on by yourself).

This may be the definition of AGP, but it's pretty much also the definition of narcissism, isn't it? India is having an extended love affair with India. Everybody else is pretty much just props for that central theme, with a side-plot of narcissistic rage if anybody dares to say anything that challenges that story as the central narrative.

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