Sooo Genuwine rejects trans woman's advances and he is in the wrong?

[80sQueen]

Apologies in advance as this is Big Brother related. So watched I clip of the above and was wondering about people's views. As a R&B fan I know that Genuwine is a heterosexual male with, previously married and several children. He goes on BB assuming for the money and has advanced on by trans woman India Willoughby then makes advances towards him and he rejects "her" . She then storms off offended due to this and it is implied he is transphobic as 1. he doesn't want to kiss her and 2. Doesn't recognise her as female. Now I have lots of views about this but found it interesting that apparently this straight male Genuwine has no right to choose of state he is not sexually interested in someone who essentially was a male and is likely to be torn down as homophobic. Ironic given the current topics of sexual harassment that women are rightfully raising. Not sure what I'm asking really just thought it was interesting

Back in the dark ages I was a very newly out lesbian hanging out in a very private gay pub where most of us were scared to death about being seen going in there or anyone from work guessing we were gay. The massive majority of us were straight acting in public at all times.

The thing I remember most is the weekly drag night for it being so joyful, if that makes any sense. It was the same group of men who were all naturally flamboyant and camp - which is very looked down on in gay men these days - who felt the freedom to act out that male femininity and celebrate and enjoy it instead of hide it. They were sweet, lovely people, it was about as 'edgy' as a Carry On film, the whole thing was hugely camped up and everyone had fun. The sense of freedom it gave me that in that space it was ok to abandon gender roles and pretending at all times to be straight. I have slipped into a very straight acting life by accident, partly due to work choices, and a friend took me to the Lady Boys show last summer. I found myself bursting into tears feeling that same sense of freedom having forgotten how strong it was and how stifling gender roles are, even when you're only subconsciously conforming to them.

But it was about people having fun and being themselves, about pushing gender stereotypes out of their boxes, about it being ok for men to be feminine (when many of my friends were extremely butch and that was much more socially acceptable). It wasn't anti women, it wasn't aggressive or nasty in any way. One of the worst things about transgender extremism is wanting to express self, while at the same time loudly insisting everyone else gets in their box and stays there because it's 'threatening' or 'triggering' or 'insulting'. It's only ok to be six foot three with a beard in a dress if you're serious about it, and forcing people to validate you as an actual woman, as opposed to enjoying a couple of hours amongst friends who get it, where you can get the suit and tie and the straight acting role off and to be as camp as you'd love to really be.

"Like Guardian says, it's the fact that they're not attracted to women so much as they're attracted to a set of props that read as "time to fuck" for them."

Depressingly this gives insight into why so many men seem to genuinely believe that a woman or a girl in a short skirt is "asking for it".

So the conclusion is that femininity, the trappings of a type of sexualised "glamour", is more important to men in what they find sexually attractive than the sex of the person under the trappings...

That is fucking weird.

Datun Personal experience here - my AGP's mother is controlling and has one of the most rigid personality I've ever seen in anyone.
She is lovely most of the time as long as things go her way and people give her lots of attention (good or bad). I hate to "Mother Blame" as well, but this is truly what she is like (not all women/mothers are lovely).
She wanted sooo badly to have a daughter, she regales all family and friends with how my Partner should have been a girl, she felt she had a girl in her womb!!! and as soon as he was born he was soooo pretty that everyone (including midwife and her mother at the birth) thought he was a girl, until the disappointing fact of the penis came into view. This is told pretty much everytime I see her and at all family gatherings. She very much ignores both my sons and worships my daughter as a goddess which is uncomfortable for me to see.
My partner has all his life been told he is a disappointment as he was not a girl (as a funny family story). He was sent to a strict public all boys school which had a bullying problem. He never felt "one of the boys" and loves all things techy and nerdy (IT guy).

As a side note she chucked him out of the family home to live with grandparents because he was dressing as a new romantic - too gay.

To finish - my husband swears to the moon and back that his family dynamics have anything to do with his Femaleness and weirdly thinks it is because he was a girl in previous life!!!!

Angry Beetle - it is a Sexual Narcissism for sure - they all seem to have paper thin egos.

Explains a lot

Attitudes to rape
Hatred and fear of gay men
Massive enforcement of gender roles on both women and men (to avoid confusion)

GlitteryPinkSoap So glad you found a place for you to have fun and feel safe.
To confirm I don't want the Courtneys' of the world to be banned and for people to not enjoy their performance, especially as it's an important cultural aspect to gay culture. I believe it's not for me and, unlike India, would be happy to just not participate and keep quiet while other people enjoy what they enjoy - that's being a part of a wide society.
TRA and their unreasonableness are making people question and all discussion is useful. I think drag isn't really performed for straight women - so I really don't have any right to censor it at all, I do have a right to question where the stereotypes come from though.

Glitterypinksoap - albeit a straight woman, I spent most of my young years hanging out on the gay scene (had a boyfriend come out on me but we stayed good friends and I had discovered I could party on the gay scene without being hassled by straight men when I just wanted a dance) and I remember it as you do. I understand that other feminists have justifiably big reservations about drag as womanface but I too remember how carefree and positive it all felt.

Interestingly, one place we used to go to a lot for its drag cabaret night, also had a night for crossdressers. I knew a few transsexuals who were all lovely people, one of whom I'm still friends with today. But the crossdressing night wasn't for them. Most of them were married men doing this on the down low from everyone they knew and, knowing what I know now, were clear AGPs. In those days, nobody would have dreamt of suggesting that the transsexuals and the AGPs were the same group. In fact, nobody liked the crossdressers because they were so obnoxious and narcissistic. But there were a a lot of them. And presumably this is why venues would have these nights. Plenty of money to be made.

Sigh. I feel so old, typing all that out!

This thread has so many illuminating insights in it (which of course is what the original concept of Big Brother was: put people in front of cameras 24/7 and see what sociological information we can gather about human interaction)

I think drag isn't really performed for straight women - so I really don't have any right to censor it at all, I do have a right to question where the stereotypes come from though.

Pantomime is a very mainstream version form of drag though, with very wide appeal to all sectors of British society (though non-Brits find it a bit weird, I think).

Drag also has valid roots in theatre that go back to a time when women were not allowed to perform and all roles were played by men. The Two Ronnies frequently performed in drag, It Aint Half Hot Mum was written reflecting the experience of the writers during WW2 when many of the entertainment troops were using drag/pantomime acts none of which were meant to be taken seriously.

Yes, absolutely take your point about questioning the stereotypes and they're very valid questions.

I know what people in the thread mean about the freedom of drag and gender-bending fun, but I have something else to say about drag queens that I have felt personally uncomfortable about.

I feel kind of jealous of the freedom of drag queens when they dress up and act in an over the top manner - because I have an 'inner drag queen' that I can't safely express because I am a woman...

It might seem pretty convoluted, but I used to hang around with the gay guys, etc - and I'd let out the sharp-tongued, quipping, flirting, provocative sex-kitten act (usually when quite inebriated), the reaction it caused meant I learned that I needed to rein it in, for example I remember a man saying "you don't know what an affect you have on men GuardianLions", and I had been thinking I was engaged in a liberating, slightly ridiculous caricature for a laugh, but I didn't realise that some of these postures and mannerisms presented my actual body as up for consumption, and the creepy lechery of the reaction it caused, made me feel vulnerable and exposed in a way a drag queen wouldn't feel with his fake tits and arse.

So anyway, I don't really do women's clothes, I am pretty gender neutral now and it bugs me the way my gay male friends want me to dress up, be glamorous and outrageous, but they don't get how I feel ill at ease about it and prefer to fade into the background, so I find that pressure from them annoying.

I'd love to be able to be over the top and outrageous occasionally, without feeling like it is bringing out a dark, lecherous side of men. Its not like I lose sleep over it or anything, but it does make me envious of male freedom when I see drag acts.

I get that, Guardian. Completely. I've toned down my party animal because it gets me in trouble. Better to be unobtrusive.

Your last post is spectacular Guardians

In the mid to late 90s I worked in many gay bars, went to cross dressing nights with them and observed their drag acts

I was absolutely also aware that I, as a women, would never be able to be as assertive, obviously sexual and aggressive as their drag acts.

I do it with my bf now

A woman who behaves like a typical drag queen is a "fun loving party girl" (in tabloid speak), or a "bit of a slut" / "always up for it" / "looking for a good time"... And we can't put that away when we take off the short skirt and glittery heels, that becomes us and defines us. And when we are harassed, or abused, or raped, even if we are wearing jeans and a t shirt when the incident occurs, it's still apparently OK because we are "like that"

I'm so glad you get it pickle and moon

I'n fact you are all too right Oleannas - I remember a friend telling me about what sounded a sexual assault of her friend when she was drunk, and I pointed this out, because this woman had apparently gone all strange and NC with the group, but my friend was saying things like "nah- you don't know what she's like - the stuff she comes out with - I reckon she'd be well up for it" - I could not believe my friend, a woman having that opinion. Not being able to distinguish over the top words and acts as part of a flamboyant personality, and being up for having someone take sexual control over you when you are too drunk to stop it.

I totally agree with Guardian, in a past life I used to perform with my friends in a drag act, I was an impersonator of a famous women and my friends were drag queens. I eventually stopped doing it as I became uncomfortable with how I was held to a different standard to my friends who were men. I had to be three times as good to get half the recognition.
I also had to stay in a role of this famous person whereas my friends could really play with their characters, it was a fun part of my life but when my friends ask me to perform with them now I always refuse, luckily my friends can totally see what I’m saying and are very sensitive to it.

Btw

What do people honk of Courtney Acts video on feminism where he says everybody can be a feminist, that feminism is about equality and that if you’re not an intersectional feminist then you’re just a white woman pushing their whiteness into everything?

Aw deadly - I am about to watch that video - I hope it doesn't piss me off too much!

He says how if you look at the numbers on paper it might look like the pay gap doesn’t exist but it’s his opinion that it does

Reading this thread I feel like I have led a sheltered life. I've never performed in, or watched a drag act!

Thinking about Courtney's fairly explicit descriptions of the sex stuff they have got up to over the years - can you imagine how it would come across if a woman spoke that candidly about her sexual experiences?

Just watched it and it wasn't as bad as I thought, because he does make the link between women's biology, patriarchy, male violence and women's oppression, and seems quite sincere about it.

He makes the mistake of showing a depiction of all those weird gender symbols and says 'all the sexes' when we know there are only two sexes - but I can forgive him, because these are treacherous waters to be navigating, so I am not surprised he is a bit confused.

Also the 'white feminism' thing is a load of bollocks. Feminism includes analysis of intersecting class oppression without falling down the rabbit hole of pomo bullshit, and the idea of 'white feminism' has really been an MRA effort to stir up misogyny and self-censorship within feminism to shut women up and let men in.

When Audre Lorde asked the white women to leave so the black women could discuss their particular experiences, the white women went willingly because they got the whole thing about intersecting oppression and the tendency of minority groups to get sidelined within movements. They didn't subscribe to this made up ideology of 'white feminism'.

Although Shane speaks of 'White Feminism' in that video, I think it sticks out as being a bit superficial (maybe his own 'white guilt') rather than the more radical feminist points he makes in the second half.

The biggest critics of white feminism are usually white males ime.

Sorry I missed your third paragraph first time I read, guardians.

no worries beyond