Sooo Genuwine rejects trans woman's advances and he is in the wrong?

[80sQueen]

Apologies in advance as this is Big Brother related. So watched I clip of the above and was wondering about people's views. As a R&B fan I know that Genuwine is a heterosexual male with, previously married and several children. He goes on BB assuming for the money and has advanced on by trans woman India Willoughby then makes advances towards him and he rejects "her" . She then storms off offended due to this and it is implied he is transphobic as 1. he doesn't want to kiss her and 2. Doesn't recognise her as female. Now I have lots of views about this but found it interesting that apparently this straight male Genuwine has no right to choose of state he is not sexually interested in someone who essentially was a male and is likely to be torn down as homophobic. Ironic given the current topics of sexual harassment that women are rightfully raising. Not sure what I'm asking really just thought it was interesting

No omnibus pickle, start at the beginning and plough through

Great article.

It did hit me last night, as much as I love Shane/ Courtney, is it right to parody women in that way? Is it adding to multiple problems? Ive never had an issue with drag queens but that thought has me questioning. Or is parody what we need? Ironically Shane has a better understanding of feminist issues as a result of what he does, in which case I'm all for it. I don't get why IW doesn't, as Miranda Y does, as a result of 'living as a woman'. Other than a narcissist complex.

OMD the adverts!

However, I'm surprised to see how little IW passes. She man spread in the diary room, albeit in a very feminised way. That clever red dress still didn't give her a waist. And the contrast with Anne, who is a no hostage taking dogmatic opinionated yet never aggressive person is interesting. There is an outward projecting energy about her, projecting herself into situations.

Sorry, I'm very late to the party. I taking the opportunity to binge watch because I'm ill in bed.

I've struggled with drag as well and asked myself, is it "womanface"?

But as an art form it's so varied and, I think, really illustrates that gender is a social construct and the rules are there to be broken.

I do struggle with those who transition from drag queen to transwomen, and still get to keep their careers. Because natal women can't be drag queens (and those who are drawn to it, "bio queens", are fairly universally ridiculed).

So it's uniquely really the fact it's a man dressed as a woman - like panto. (I can see why those that fully transition are then rocking the boat.)

The thing about drag for me is that, like with a panto dame, much of the humor is predicated on the (adult) audience knowing that the person is in fact a gay male.

There is no pretense that they are anything other than what they are -men.

Drag is also wrapped up in the history of theatre when (often) gay, effeminate men were used to play the women’s roles as acting was an “unsuitable” job for a women. Of course there is a whole load of misogyny right there, I suppose, but I have always seen drag as an expression of gay culture/history than being particularly about women because it allowed gay men to express their camp/flamboyant and effeminate selves in a relatively safe environment.

That said, I do get the “womenface” thing. I haven’t given the drag thing a great deal of thought and on closer analysis it’s not inconceivable that I might change my mind about it.

Thing is with drag queens is they don't tend to genuinely believe they are women. They know what they are and they know that dressing in drag and that it's essentially playing pretend.

Transwomen seem obsessed with trying to convince everyone (including themselves) that they are real woman. That they are literally the same as 'natal' women, that there really are no differences between the two. They completely disregard the fact that our biology is the reason for our oppression and that they can identify their way into it. I see trans as more 'womanface' than drag. It all seems to be based on gender stereotypes and the struggles women have had to go through to get even basic rights gets disregarded.

I'm ambivalent about drag too.

Given the name of the show it's funny that this year Big Brother was watching a TIM who would like us all to doublethink.

A two part dramatisation of 1984 is on BBC iPlayer Radio at the moment btw.

I think it boils down to the fact that drag isn't a threat to women. Trans-activism is.

That's true Delete. Drag has been around for a long time and never really trodden on women's toes so most women won't be that bothered about it even if it is a construct from a Patriarchal society.

Transactivism... not so much.

Aldous Huxley Brave New World, re totalitarian state said that monogamy would be replaced with "everyone belongs to everyone else".
Now with political correct dogma it is coming true. It's seen as discrimination now to choose who a person can have sex with. I.e. The porn actress who was hounded on twitter for not doing a scene with a man who had sex with other men, and killed herself is another example.
Here we go further into the gutter of a post Christian society and its painful to watch.

Society is becoming increasingly pathological, it embraces narcissism, self interest and lies.
Humanity will try to rewrite itself and self destruct.

I think it boils down to the fact that drag isn't a threat to women. Trans-activism is.

YY. I see drag as 'womanface' . A sexualised affront to women's dignity that perpetuates horrible stereotypes. Bio queens being ridiculed doesn't surprise me because drag is inherently sexist IMO.

However, drag artists aren't trying to change the law to force everyone to watch drag or to validate their opinion that it's harmless. I can choose not to engage with it, just like I don't watch Benny Hill. Which isn't the case with transactivism.

This article is interesting.

medium.com/@GappyTales/the-india-effect-what-celebrity-big-brother-can-teach-us-about-gender-politics-61091c9e77c2

Particularly this part.

*It is a fact that no natal woman has ever felt the need to approach another, and shout at her that she is a real woman. And in return, no natal woman has ever felt the need to say to another, of course you are and I totally respect that. Such an exchange serves only to reveal that neither party wholly believes what they are saying. And so here lies the crux: trans women know they are not women in any concrete, material sense, which is what has given rise to all the various mental gymnastics regarding sexed brains and souls trumping the bare facts of ones reproductive system. In an attempt to relieve distress and provide a theoretical framework for validation, the truth must necessarily be bent, squeezed, and hammered square into a round hole. But the actual truth of our physical selves does not require endless validation. As a biological woman of average height and blue eyes, I’ve no need to harangue, manipulate, or bully others into confirming my femaleness, or the fact that I am 5'4" tall, because these facts are self evident. I’ve no need to develop mind bending theories around height or eye colour, and insist that others subscribe to them under threat of being made a social pariah, because I am secure in the knowledge of what is real and true about myself. Nobody has ever once felt the need to say to me, “I believe you have blue eyes and I respect that,” because in the face of an obvious truth, this would be a ridiculous thing to say.

The root of Willoughby’s rage, and that of the trans activists demanding ever more outrageous expressions of validation, lies here. When we are asked to go along with such blatantly false claims as trans women have periods and can get pregnant, it is because any previous acknowledgement that trans women are women simply wasn’t enough to fill the void created by that undercurrent of self doubt. Trans women know exactly what the majority of women (and some men too) are doing: placating, humouring, pitying, and playing along, either due to a belief that it is no skin off their nose, or out of fear, and a self serving need to be seen as right and good. The behaviour of the Celebrity Big Brother contestants is being writ large across the country, as is India’s response. Understand that it will never be enough to state that trans women are women. Instead we must change everything: our language, our social behaviour, and even our inborn sexualities.*

She's right. Ultimately what trans women want is for other people to believe things that both we and they know not to be true, and for us to help convince them that the untrue thing is true. It's a recipe for a lifetime of misery, and no legislative changes can solve that fundamental problem for them, because it's possible to force a person to say specific things but it's not possible to force them to actually believe those things. So women's rights to privacy, assembly, medical treatment by a same sex professional, and so on are being thrown away in pursuit of an impossible goal.

And if they get what they want and it still doesn't make them happy, which it won't, it will be our fault for not believing hard enough, like they're Tinkerbell and we refused to really believe in fairies.

IW on Lorraine right now. Claims they are now transsexual, not transgender.

AngryAttackKittens that article is fantastic. Completely agree with your analysis too.

Sorry had to deal with stuff in RL, glad thread is still going. I've never felt drag is a threat to women, however the trans movement on the other hand

Trans example -

The sky is appears blue with white clouds, has done since forever. However a few people come along and say it's green even though it's contrary to the the fact. However it then becomes practically illegal to say otherwise

Angry that is a great article and analysis. You are right, nothing will or can ever be good enough.

Any concessions are pointless and damaging. I wish the handmaidens could see this.