Terrible article from the Independent

[catgirl1976]

Here www.indy100.com/article/trans-lives-matter-shon-faye-juno-dawson-riley-carter-india-willoughby-travis-alabanza-annie-wallace-8099866

What can 'cis' people do to be better allies to transpeople in 2018.

I don't even know where to start with this.

That's the Guardian and the Independent off my list now. Politically homeless and driven to reading The Times.

Having worked in the sector, the reason why some services go up to age 25 for young people with additional needs is precisely because they have additional needs and so may need more support with independent living, a longer time to complete their education, etc, and it isn't fair if they're cut off from funding. It's by no means universal and certainly isn't because people under 25 are in some way still children. That's an absurdity. It's offensively infantilising.

It's also odd how some of the same transactivists considering 19/20 year olds somehow children in need of protection are totally fine with preteens making the decision to take puberty blockers, and young teenagers having surgery.

How do you suggest preventing the DM and similar taking images/videos from public websites like YouTube, actively posted there by under 25s seeking publicity?

Astria- given you work in the sector I assume you know about all of the research into adolescent brain development and why so many adolescent services go up to 25- and forthe reasons why places where they dont there are initiatives into 'mind the gap' type services- not just for yp with ld?

@FarFrom
They didn’t dig up and expose the pictures though, they hardly had to go phone-hacking or rifling through bins, the photos were already published for the public to see.

Isn't it funny how some posters are outraged at a 20yr old who has used photos to garner publicity, because those photos are republished? Yet so many of the same posters feel that a child has the capacity to decide if they're the opposite sex.

This looks like an excuse to get a large image of the participants into the media.
Why the big pics????? Why does image matter so much to trans people?

I dont' think anyone had anything magic answer, just an excuse for an article and a pic.It won't put me off reading the Guardian.

Also if the link gets lots of clicks you can expect more of it in the paper.

I think it might actually be quite a good thing if mental health services started to think that 18 year olds should not be able to consent to very significant non reversible changes. So no more cross hormones and definitely no more mastectomies, hysterectomies and genital surgeries. Would also solve the problem highlighted here. If Alex Bertie had not been allowed to have a mastectomy then there would be no pictures to exploit.

It would also be quite the relief for the families of very vulnerable teenagers and young adults who feel that with more time and the right therapy their children might come terms with their bodies and be able to live their lives unmedicated and with fully functioning bodies.

For those talking about treating this vlogger as a child/adolescent, you are aware that they've been deemed adult enough to consent to a medically unnecessary procedure?

And this thread is about the adults profiled in the Indy. So then. How are we feeling about this? I am a fan of political correctness, I like people en masse being forced to use respectful and decent language. I give no fucks for the Bernard Mannings who are told that their linguistic choices are "suddenly" unacceptable. I am not seeing the use of preferred pronouns in the same way, I consider it redolent of authoritative concepts. I am a woman and I will never be able to identify out of the pay gap, the 2nd shift, the yada yada. How do we call absolute bullshit on this?

WTF is all this adolescent stuff about

The poster upthread said

"Why are some feminists prepared to look the other way when the naked children being exploited are trans?"

The "child" she was talking about is 20 and has a book out

I agree that 20 is young, and it's well known that brain development continues until about 25, calling into question some ideas around crime and punishment amongst other things.

However that has nothing to do with this thread as a twenty year old is most definitely not a child by any stretch of the imagination

This latest poster is trying to get people into a totally irrelevant conversation. I suggest not engaging.

"I think what we need from cis people is for them to realise and see that we are currently in an epidemic of violence against trans people," Travis told indy100. ‘

Are we? Really? I would love to see how Travis has got to this conclusion and how they’re defining violence.

Someone better tell the Labour Party that they have an adolescent male as a women's officer then

I am happy to make reasonable adjustments for someone, is it reasonable to make adjustments for someone who has a MH condition that accused others of gaslighting, whilst the person requesting adjustments from us refers to an adult as a child, which is factually incorrect?

WTF is all this adolescent stuff about

Welcome to the logic of trans ideology. Only one side gets to choose the definitions of things that have been commonplace for ever, and that side doesn't need to keep their definitions consistent, whether that's in separate documents, or even in the same sentence.

There's no need for definitions to be factually correct either. Requesting that is now transphobic.

Where is the fact checking?

We're in a post-facts world now Tiny

Facts get in the way of people's feelz and are transphobic

"I think what we need from cis people is for them to realise and see that we are currently in an epidemic of violence against trans people," Travis told indy100. ‘

If a third of the population is trans, then they're going to need to find many more instances of violence against trans people for there to be an epidemic. Otherwise, the amount of transphobic violence that does happen is going to be lost in the noise.

This is one thing I see again and again in arguments to push the trans ideology. Sometimes the argument only works when there are many many trans people and sometimes it only works when there are very few.

Hemlocks comment needs saying again:

For those talking about treating this vlogger as a child/adolescent, you are aware that they've been deemed adult enough to consent to a medically unnecessary procedure?

This person is clearly an adult, and has been deemed so by medical professionals, to be competent to consent to having a cosmetic procedure on their breasts. It's ridiculous to suggest that they can consent to having them removed, but weren't able to consent, and fully aware of the consequences of, posting before and after pictures of that procedure on youtube and in a book

Gah, I hate this. And if cis is going to contiue to be bandied around, I am going to need someone from the Indie/ Guardian/ transagenda to clearly define the descrption/meaning of 'woman as a gender' so I can see if I am cis or not.

Seeing as all day I have literally done nothing differently from my husband except notice my sore boobs and wonder if my period will come early, and am dressed in similar clothes to him, eaten the same food, watched the same telly, listened to the same radio, talked about the same subjects, etc etc etc, except I am preoccupied with posting here today while he needs to sleep (unwell) oh and he pees standing up while I sit down, I think they are really going to stuggle to find a defintion/ description that differentiates between us that does not include biology or experiences that stem from that biology.

Until they do that successfully and in a wya that I can truly agree/ cis identify with, articles talking about cis women have nothing to do with me (and are masviely offensive)

and of course if all women are counted as women, including trans women, then how can we possibly count what violence is committed a result of trans-hate or as result of women-hate. This would be a massive disservice to both groups, but it seems like the trans-illogic-agenda would spin the numbers any which way regardless.

Wow I see that the TRA tactic of just redefining words to mean what they want is alive and well on this thread.

Revenge porn = topless photo of a transman who had already published the image on YouTube and a book for the entire world to see.

Child = 20 year old.

Adolescent = 20 year old.

Purleeeeeeez.

I saw this article today and what struck me is the use of language, it's quite aggressive and pushes out any other recourse.

'Just be a good person, basically' - its kind of gaslighty. The way in which he describes what 'cis' means - 'if you are lucky enough....'.

And this assumption that you desperately want to be a 'good trans ally' - it sort of makes me think of men saying to women 'be good, don't make a fuss, we know best'.

I haven't articulated very well there, but I always think the language around the trans agenda is very 'mansplainy' if that makes sense?

And am not surprised that this was written by that absolute nobber from Twitter.

not sure you really want a discussion with different viewpoints- and agree that the definition of adolescent is on the periphery of this general argument. But the reason for the age range changing is a different type of reason/ debate to the what makes a woman debate. I do wonder though if many here want to point score rather than engage- even if in disagreement.