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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Terrible article from the Independent

224 replies

catgirl1976 · 01/01/2018 12:06

Here www.indy100.com/article/trans-lives-matter-shon-faye-juno-dawson-riley-carter-india-willoughby-travis-alabanza-annie-wallace-8099866

What can 'cis' people do to be better allies to transpeople in 2018.

I don't even know where to start with this.

That's the Guardian and the Independent off my list now. Politically homeless and driven to reading The Times.

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CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/01/2018 13:16

Derail derail derail derail derail derail...

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/01/2018 13:17

Surely images on youtube are designed to be shared??

Yes. They even provide a helpful shortcut for easy linking.

ALunerExplorer · 01/01/2018 13:18

Well, good to see a living breathing demonstration of my point.

If that had been a 20 yr old woman, (with a youtube channel etc) you would be saying something very very different.

catgirl1976 · 01/01/2018 13:20

Erm. No I wouldn't

If anyone puts something on YouTube they have given consent for anyone to use it and reproduce as they wish. Including the Daily Mail.

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/01/2018 13:24

If that had been a 20 yr old woman, (with a youtube channel etc) you would be saying something very very different

Er, no. Once you post something on YouTube it is in the public domain. You are an idiot if you then whine about it being re-used.

nauticant · 01/01/2018 13:29

Thanks for clarifying that the discussion was about Alex Bertie who had put the photographs into the public domain themselves.

I saw essentially - engaging in 'revenge porn' and could see there was some creative writing going on. This is one of the main problems I have with trans allies, so much of their output just makes no sense grammatically, logically, and/or factually.

WillowWept · 01/01/2018 13:30

aluner you are all over every trans thread, barely coherent, desperately derailing. What is it you're trying to achieve?

IrkThePurist · 01/01/2018 13:30

Its a fluff piece supporting one person who gloats about erasing women, and another who openly stated gay kids are 'degenerate.'

Terrible article from the Independent
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/01/2018 13:31

"To me, people are people," she told indy100. "The 'cis' word is one that 99.9% of the trans world has never heard before and just helps to create a 'them and us' situation. Gaining acceptance is a two-way street.

"Personally, I don't think a trans person being bolshy or making dramatic demands or having immediate expectations of others is going to end well. It's all about compromise. And the best thing trans allies – and trans people themselves – can do, is listen to one another."

Comments by India Willoughby who was I think (I skim read it) the only one who expressed any notion that the world does not revolve around them.

MadgeMidgerson · 01/01/2018 13:32

20 year olds are children now? Oh.

catgirl1976 · 01/01/2018 13:33

Poor India - I couldn't get that far down to read her well reasoned and excellent comments.

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ALunerExplorer · 01/01/2018 13:37

Ah the old 'opposing argument being portrayed as derailing' thing.

That's a bit gaslighty, if I am honest.

HermioneWeasley · 01/01/2018 13:37

The pictures of Alex Bertie post mastectomy are,according to transactivist logic, photos of an adult male which he put on YouTube. I fail to see the issue.

catgirl1976 · 01/01/2018 13:39

Which argument do you believe you are opposing Alunar?

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ReanimatedSGB · 01/01/2018 13:43

I also thought there were some fair and reasonable comments in that article (along with some twatty ones.) Several of the interviewees made it clear that they weren't going to call the police if someone used the wrong pronouns, and that they mainly just wanted to go on with their lives.
And it is a fact that many visibly gender-non-conforming people (trans or not) get a lot of abuse. Some of it might be down to the antics of the worst sort of spiteful, attention-seeking TRAs, but some of it is down to the fact that a lot of people hate anyone and anything 'different'.

Maryz · 01/01/2018 13:44

Who is Dr Meg-John Barker? He/she/ze? sounds very confused.

Should a shopkeeper really ask every customer whether they want to be referred to as Sir or Madam? Is it really so awful to say "can you serve this gentleman/lady please"?

I dunno. I accept transpeople have challenges, but surely they can't expect every single person to suspect every single other person of possibly not wanting to be referred to as he or she; conversations are going to get very convoluted.

IrkThePurist · 01/01/2018 13:45

ALunerExplorer No, thats not what gaslighting means.
Gaslighting is a very specific term.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

PositivelyPERF · 01/01/2018 13:45

Yet another adult being described as a child, because the poor trans has had negative feed back. Teenage girls are being called bigots if they don't want to share a female space with a TIM, yet adults who are trans are being described as children. It just gets more ridiculous every day, which I'm delighted with as it helps more people reach trans peak.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/01/2018 13:46

Derail derail derail derail derail...

LangCleg · 01/01/2018 13:51

Shon Faye tries my soul. He is the absolute epitome of bourgeois male entitlement. It flows from every pore. Ugh. If there was ever an argument against trans ideology, it's him.

Luner - Alex Bertie would clearly prefer that their content wasn't re-used by the Mail and I don't blame them. Particularly since the image was topless. However:

  1. As others have pointed out, the image was not Alex's to control and that's on Alex for posting it in non copyright spaces.

  2. Alex has a book out and has been relentlessly promoting it. The image is featured in the book. The Mail is as free to pass negative comment on the contents of Alex's book as anyone else is to pass positive comment. Alex cannot argue that the image is simultaneously off limits and also publish it for public consumption.

  3. What the Mail did with Alex Bertie's images has nothing to do with whether or not the Independent article is a prima facie piece of pro-trans propaganda. I say it is a prima facie piece of pro-trans propaganda. What say you? You know - on the topic of this thread.

Tringley · 01/01/2018 13:58

I have absolutely zero issues with someone wanting to live as the gender they were not born as. If that makes them happier and more comfortable in their own skin for whatever reason, that's fine by me. And if they want to make that change legal, it's no skin off my nose and I support people having that right.

I do however have concerns about why they feel how they do and I think that it's very important that we don't judge children based on socially created gender constructs. My child has a penis, that makes him a boy. The fact that he loves rough play, cars and superheroes is not because of that penis. The fact that he loves Barbie and My Little Pony does not mean he shouldn't have a penis. The fact that he'll wear a Luke Skywalker, Hulk or Elsa costume interchangeably means nothing other than he is a child who like imaginative play and has access to a range of costumes. The fact that he cares for his baby Anabelle and fusses over friends' babies means nothing other than he'd quite like a younger sibling. He likes glittery lip gloss and coloured nailpolish because colourful and shiny things are attractive to small children.

He is 100% free to enjoy whatever he likes and I suspect that if anything, that keeps him secure in his identity as a male human. If I started refusing to let him watch Barbie or play with his ponies because they are girls things, there is a small possibility he would start to question that identity. If I, myself, started to question his sexuality or gender identity and make long term assumptions about him because of his diverse entertainment preferences aged 5, I could create doubt in him.

If he ever in the future comes to me and tells me he feels he should be female, I'll know that it's because of some indefinable core feeling and not because he still harbours a desire and attraction towards things I forbade him from because of his gender. But now as a child he gets to like all children's things because I don't think the presence of his penis trumps a child's desire to play and explore any and all things that spark their interest. However I know this is rare and soooooo many parents I know in real life are working on genuine assumptions that their small daughter is gay/trans because she doesn't like dresses or their young son is gay/trans because he thinks bright ponies with pet dragons and magic powers are great. It's honestly really weird.

catgirl1976 · 01/01/2018 13:59

One of the contributors states that they think 'cis' is divisive and suggests it's not really even used outside of the more vocal TRA's. A lot of people find it offensive. And yet the Independent use it in their headline. A long with phrases like 'moral panic' and 'right wing'.

This is what annoys me the most. Along with Shon Faye who is a pretty obvious MRA .

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ALunerExplorer · 01/01/2018 14:07

I know exactly what gaslighting means thank you.

I wasn't derailing. I was giving my opinion in response to the OP. That is not derailing. Citing examples for that opinion is not derailing. Its what you do if you proffer an opinion. STOP trying to claim that's derailing.

You are saying I am doing something that I am not doing. That's gaslighting. I have a mental health disability.

Please be aware of that from now on.

IrkThePurist · 01/01/2018 14:14

Lunar No one is gaslighting you. No one is trying to say you are mentally unwell or mistrust your own judgement.

if you genuinely need other people to take care of your mental health online, then think twice before posting.

QueenLaBeefah · 01/01/2018 14:19

What is your mental health disability? Just so we are better equipped to post with that in mind?