Terrible article from the Independent

[catgirl1976]

Here www.indy100.com/article/trans-lives-matter-shon-faye-juno-dawson-riley-carter-india-willoughby-travis-alabanza-annie-wallace-8099866

What can 'cis' people do to be better allies to transpeople in 2018.

I don't even know where to start with this.

That's the Guardian and the Independent off my list now. Politically homeless and driven to reading The Times.

I think revenge porn is a decent analogy tbh. Since the article was an attack piece, seeking to monster trans children, and one of a number of pieces over a few week period that attacked directly the care of trans children - and without ever bothering to check any facts, far less seek consent.

All I am doing is voicing how I see the anti-trans, anti-queer narrative that is being presented, and maybe suggesting that it isn't necessarily either the only view, or the only way to understand feminism. It's not.

So no ‘naked children’ have been exploited luner.

Let’s just bank that shall we. You said naked children were being exploited and though you won’t say so, it’s clear they weren’t. You were - misrepresenting the situation. That might be the kindest word to use.

ALunerExplorer
my response would be to create a space where the cis and trans women in that space are consenting to and comfortable to be there, together.

Thats been the position of radical feminists since Day 1.
The third space option is the one that is supported by the Equality Act, and supports women from other cultures who cannot share space with biological males.

Trans activists dont support the third space option. They claim to be 'intersectional' while they exclude women from other cultures and call us white supremacists.

All I am doing is voicing how I see the anti-trans, anti-queer narrative that is being presented, and maybe suggesting that it isn't necessarily either the only view, or the only way to understand feminism. It's not.

Anti-trans, anti-queer. These terms are pretty inaccurate IMO. 'Pro-woman' is more accurate. And surely all feminism should be 'pro-woman'.

Surely it just serves to peak trans more people though.
When people actually hear what they are saying, that we should stop saying ‘sir and madam’ etc. It’s insane. I agree that Travis is a one man Peak Transing machine.

Nope.

That Times article by Janice Turner? Exploiting children.

Alex was targeted because of his youth following (the whole 'children are being sucked into a trans cult' bollocks). Also the fact of him being 20 now is irrelevant, because he wasn't 20 when those photo's were taken.

Absolutely no children were involved.
Teenagers are repeatedly told by teachers and their parents alike that once you put an image on the internet you instantly have no control over it. I have zero sympathy for a 20 yr old (AKA adult) to do something he was repeatedly warned against.

Oh you’re still banging the anti queer, anti trans drum despite not answering any of my points in the other thread.

You said exploiting naked children.

But here's a question: presumably, some or most of you don't even accept that Alex Bertie is a man (as he states he is). Presumably some or most of you believe Alex Bertie is really a woman and should accept that.

Which would mean that those of you who do not Alex Bertie as a man, are justifying using naked pictures of someone you believe is really a woman, without consent.

It's you who can't have it both ways, Luner!

Either Alex is a boy, in which case a topless photo is always fine. Or Alex is a girl, in which case most people accept that topless photos are not fine. You're the one wanting it to be not fine, so presumably you are the one thinking Alex is a girl.

My view: the Mail is a shitty publication and should have used other images as a matter of manners and taste. However, there's nothing about their use of this image that couldn't be applied to their use of images generally. They weren't specially picking on trans people: they pick on everyone. That's their USP. Additionally, the images were from Alex's book that Alex was busy promoting. When you are promoting yourself as a product in this way, you'll get both positive and negative feedback. Them's the breaks when you've set out to make a monetary profit out of yourself.

Seeing as you’re just going from thread to thread repeating yourself and not engaging I’m just going to copy my response from the last thread.

lunar

You seem to think I'm here to change peoples minds and make you all trans and queer friendly. I'm not. If you have a problem, that will continue to remain your problem.

See the thing is is that most of us ARE trans and queer friendly, but we also want to be able to defend women’s rights in the places where they clash, because they DO clash.
I have spent my entire life within the gay community, I was brought up by two women who tried to give me a ‘gender neutral’ upbringing (total nightmare btw but that’s for a different thread) and when I was a teenager I HATED my female body, I starved myself so I wouldn’t grow breasts and hips and I was convinced I was supposed to be a boy (well Jarvis cocker to be precise).
We aren’t conservative homophobes who hate people who are different but we think that people should be able to express themselves exactly as they wish without being told that there is something wrong with them.
We don’t believe that you can be born into the wrong body, but that your body is perfect and society is wrong. We believe that gender dysphoria is a real and awful condition but that it is a condition that should be supported with great care and we should be looking at structural changes as well as putting plasters over the symptoms of a deep systemic illness which is rigid gender roles brought down by the patriarchy.
We think it’s cruel to tell children that there’s something wrong with their genitals rather than provide a society that says you can be whoever the fuck you want to be.
We also believe that until these changes can happen women need safe spaces away from males as one of the symptoms of (or the whole fucking structure of) the patriachy is Male violence.
Another belief is that women are oppressed due to their biology rather than their gender identity and to not be able to name biological issues that women face (fgm, maternity rights, access to abortions etc) as women’s issues actually stops feminism because how can we fight what we can’t name?

We are not people who hate trans people, in fact there are trans people on these very boards, and it’s not helpful to the conversation to keep painting us in that way.

You're trying to gaslight again, Lunar.

I don’t think you understand what revenge porn is. You can’t do it with images that someone themselves has already released into public domain.

Although I don't self-identify as a TERF I am almost certainly daubed as such by trans-activists.

But I certainly do not expect a newspaper to refrain from publishing views different from my own.

Free speech is a victim in all this. My right to say what I feel and believe about gender and sex and power, as well as the views of trans people.

I'm afraid this is a terrible example of revenge porn and dismisses the experiences of (mainly) women who find their bodies and sexual experiences plastered online and sent to friends and family - and the police now take it very seriously. Of course, had they posted these images on youtube in the first place, the police would not be in the slightest bit interested as they had shared them themselves.

Now, back to the subject....my concern was that so many of them see gender critical articles as attacks and transphobia and seek "support" in challenging this. That of course is the silencing so favoured by TG pressure groups and why we are in this appalling mess.
We really need clearly understood definitions - I think Mumsnet generally have it right which is why there is so little deleting on here. Because of course, most of us don't hate trans people and many of us have gender non conforming people in our family and friend networks. We just expect the legal rights of women to be respected and not trampled all over.

If only that respect was a two way street.....

Mumsnet is actually brilliant at deleting transphobia. In fact there’s even a deletion on this thread, because a word was used that could have been read as being transphobic despite the poster not meaning it in that way.

Homophobic comments will not be tolerated at all.

I suppose if you think saying a trans woman is biologically Male is transphobic then your issue is with reality not us.

The queer thing is just silly, there is no hatred towards queer people, some posters get frustrated that it’s equated with the struggles of gay people but that’s not hatred. People aren’t oppressed because they don’t have sex or they don’t like one night stands and if they think they are they need to get a grip and learn the meaning of oppression.

Do words mean anything anymore?

This is revenge pork if and only if it is a media product of some kind (photo, gif, video) of a person engaged in sexual activity which was sent to a second person for their consumption only, who then decided to broadcast the image/gif/video without consent

but chapeau, Luner, we are all talking about something that has fuckall to do with the original OP

Your tuck is showing, babe

I would put money on none of the regs on feminist boards being DM readers TBH.

Not sure why we are being asked to explain / defend the actions of a newspaper that I'm pretty sure we all hate, and has a hideous track record against most groups who aren't straight white wealthy men.

Back to thread.

Revenge pork 😂😂

Is that when you put ham stock in a vegans lentil soup madge?

Revenge porn is more like this sort of thing where a woman committed suicide over it:

[https://globalnews.ca/news/2944325/italian-woman-commits-suicide-after-her-leaked-sex-tape-became-a-meme/ Italy]]

Or the situations where women have had their phone numbers, addressed and images posted online on sites for men looking for prostitutes, and in some extreme cases even with messages saying they fantasised about being raped.

As Guardian points out, using this as an example of revenge porn utterly reduces and minimises what happens to women (and it is usually women) all over the world every day. That's pretty much par for the course though isn't it, the actual suffering of women and girls means nothing to these sorts of people.

Italy

If the ham identifies as tofu, why not

anyway, I am genuinely dismayed by a poster who is willing to post in bad faith, utterly misrepresenting events then demanding justifications from people who had nothing to do with it

it’s trash, and obvious to boot

UpaBitLate
That's a dreadful story. That poor woman.

As Guardian points out, using this as an example of revenge porn utterly reduces and minimises what happens to women (and it is usually women) all over the world every day. That's pretty much par for the course though isn't it, the actual suffering of women and girls means nothing to these sorts of people.

YY that's what I find particularly offensive about Luner's (and other transactivists') idiotic use of the term.