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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Terrible article from the Independent

224 replies

catgirl1976 · 01/01/2018 12:06

Here www.indy100.com/article/trans-lives-matter-shon-faye-juno-dawson-riley-carter-india-willoughby-travis-alabanza-annie-wallace-8099866

What can 'cis' people do to be better allies to transpeople in 2018.

I don't even know where to start with this.

That's the Guardian and the Independent off my list now. Politically homeless and driven to reading The Times.

OP posts:
Branleuse · 01/01/2018 18:34

i think if i had a PUBLIC facebook page or a public instagram page and I was even vaguely well known or famous, I would absolutely expect the possibility that my pictures would be shared. Thats what happens.

Since when is a bloke with his top off "porn"?

NannyOggsKnickers · 01/01/2018 19:05

Back to the OP topic:

That article is awful because it mostly pushes the TRA agenda into the main stream. And that agenda is completely misogynistic.

Self definition is ok. As long as you realise that not everyone has to accept your definition of yourself.

Biological determinism is a different thing. We shouldn’t pick on someone because of how they were born. No one can help that.

And since it has been well proven that there is no such thing as male and female brains, especially at birth, then we can agree that definition yourself as a woman when you are biologically a man is your own choice based on your gender conditioning.

Which is fine. But don’t expect people to roll over and give up their hard won freedoms to allow you to exploit them.

Would anyone really expect a white man who wanted to define himself as African American to get a scholarship on a program for African American students? Or for an adult who wanted to define themselves as a child to be allowed back into primary school? Or for someone who defined themselves as a tiger to be allowed to live in the zoo?

It is ok to help and support people- up to a point. We should be free to make choices for ourselves but not to trample on the rights and needs of others to do this.

Tinycitrus · 01/01/2018 19:42

Just be a good person, basically

This is what really irritated me about that article.

That if you are not fully supportive of this political agenda you are not a ‘good person.’

I would support any trans person at work. I honestly don’t care about sharing toilets etc on a personal level.

But - I do care that women as a class are being shouted down at every turn when expressing legitimate concerns about far reaching changes to our public and private lives.

I care that these changes are being made based on so little evidence and the consequences are not being adequately examined for fear of being called a bigot.

An example is the recent trans guidance published for Scottish schools which means that I have no right to know if my daughter is sharing a dormitory with a biological make and she has no right to complain. Her feelings must come second to everyone else’s. The irony is that This is one of the first lessons you learn growing up as a woman. Trans women haven’t learned that yet Sad

Ereshkigal · 01/01/2018 20:27

I can't bring myself to read it.

MorrisZapp · 01/01/2018 20:29

Same. I just can't face this shite.

Ereshkigal · 01/01/2018 20:31

Ha! Well, if he wants to mention that whenever he crosses my virtual path I see Flashman in a dress, he can be my guest. Entitled posh boy creeping on women's spaces.

Perhaps we should start a thread about Shon so he can more easily harvest our comments for his show?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/01/2018 20:41

So that's a 'no' to autonomy for trans people from you then?

I have literally no idea what the DM reprinting publically available photos of a celebrity has to do with bodily autonomy

This is a derail but I'm slightly concerned by one or 2 posters suggesting the Mail did something wrong here or should have obtained consent. The Mail did nothing wrong legally or ethically.

You may not like the Mail but the same standards and rules apply to the Mail as to any other newspaper. If say the Gaurdian were to find a video of a politician saying they disapproved of gay marriage would you expect for one minute that the Guardian should get consent before linking to or printing stills from it?

AstraiaLiberty · 01/01/2018 23:17

In the article, Dr Meg John Barker says:

"And remember that gender isn't binary. Over a third of people experience themselves as the other gender, neither gender or both genders. Try to move away from binary language like he and she, ladies and gentlemen, sir and madam. Include non-binary trans people by making sure you check a person's gender, pronoun and title before assuming. Learn about non-binary genders, they pronouns, and the title 'Mx'."

Now assuming that this doesn't reflect the gender-critical position that most people are non-binary or don't have a gender because gender is a harmful social construct rather than a mystical essence and most of us don't fit in pink or blue boxes - any idea where on earth the figure of over a third of people being trans or non-binary comes from?

FarFrom · 01/01/2018 23:39

20 is still a very young and adolescent person.

QueenLaBeefah · 01/01/2018 23:45

20 is an adult. Stop being ridiculous.

ReanimatedSGB · 01/01/2018 23:51

I think to an extent MJ Barker is saying that gender is a social construct and that people should not have to conform to a rigid binary. The biggest problem regarding sex and gender at present is that we keep getting this concept of a polarized debate between embittered old feminist funsponge hags on one side and male-bodied sexual deviants in glittery lipstick on the other. There are quite a lot of well-intentioned people in both feminist circles and trans/genderqueer circles who have a lot more in common than they (and everyone on the sidelines) are being led to think.

Xenophile · 02/01/2018 00:13

So called "revenge porn" is where a person sends images of themselves in private to an intimate partner who then posts them publicly to humiliate that usually woman.

Screen shotting a 20 yr old Tif's public domain YouTube video, while not really being cricket isn't even in the same ball park, so do try another avenue of trying to prove that women who know what a man is are all evil bastards, please? One that stands up to some level of scrutiny might be a refreshing change.

Xenophile · 02/01/2018 00:14

And for the nth time.

If you're going to throw around accusations of trans and homophobia, the please report the posts you believe display those things, because MNHQ will delete them immediately if they are.

FarFrom · 02/01/2018 00:21

I’m sorry but 20 is an adolescent. A young adult but with an adolescent brain.

FarFrom · 02/01/2018 00:23

Which is why ehcps go up to 25 and there is a push for Camhs services to do the same.

AssassinatedBeauty · 02/01/2018 00:25

20 is an adult, legally and in all other respects. It is absurd to suggest that all adults under 25 should be regarding as children.

FarFrom · 02/01/2018 00:29

assassin watch this space. If they ever get enough funding, services will change. I'm saying adolescent btw rather than child.

AssassinatedBeauty · 02/01/2018 00:34

What has Educational Health & Care Plans and the Child & Adolescent Mental Health Service got to do with treating all adults under 25 as children?

FarFrom · 02/01/2018 00:36

services are changing due to recognition that under 25s are still adolescents.

Xenophile · 02/01/2018 00:38

Hmm, I was unaware that Alex Bertie had an ECHP, although why that's relevant I'm not sure.

And ECHPs don't always go to 25, my DS's died when he hit 18 because he was... an adult. And CAMHS refuse to see people older than 16 here and this area isn't alone, which leaves incoming cases and new referrals with nothing for 2 years because they get taken over by adult services when they're 18, because they're adults.

AssassinatedBeauty · 02/01/2018 00:39

What has that got to do with treating all under 25s as children? What does this have to do with anything on this thread?

FarFrom · 02/01/2018 00:50

It has to do with the argument about whether or not they are adults. At 20, very much still adolescent.

(xenophile- sorry to hear about your experience- unless you were lucky enough for a good experience

FarFrom · 02/01/2018 00:52

The daily mail delighting at finding and exposing such pictures at any age is grim, but particularly horrible for an adolescent.

Xenophile · 02/01/2018 00:52

Well, he didn't actually kill himself, so I'm taking that as a positive. (My DS that is)

guardianfree · 02/01/2018 00:53

Well someone had better tell all the married 20 year olds, those in the police and the armed forces keeping us all safe, journalists, nurses, drivers etc etc that they must STOP immediately cos they're children (but society didn't realise) Grin

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