Follow on thread III - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[SophoclesTheFox]

I don't know if it has the legs to sustain a third thread, but kudos to perfectly for the impeccable timing of finally answering a question on the second to last post before the thread filled up. Genius.

here is the second thread

As I am now the OP, I wonder if this gives me the right of veto over the resolutions that we apparently made in the Great Accords of 2017?

Noone is criticizing all men.

And there I was, honestly thinking that starting a third thread might be overkill, and here's saucysienna to tell us NAMALT and prove me so very, very wrong.

@SophoclesTheFox

You referred to males being allowed in female facilities, suggesting that transwomen are male when they're not.

And feminism is supposed to be the advocation of equal treatment between the genders.

No, it is factually incorrect to refer to someone who is legally female as 'male'.

No, it is factually incorrect to assert that a male (denoting biological sex) human being is a female (denoting biological sex) human being because that male human being feels and dresses like a woman.

And of course, pointing out that 98% of sexual assaults are committed by male human beings is painting women as "vulnerable" and "inferior," even though this is the objective reality of the situation.

Oddly enough, I've never felt the least bit threatened by lesbians in women's restrooms, changing rooms or locker rooms. That probably to do with those pesky objective facts that lesbians are female human beings who do not commit 98% of sexual assaults.

@BatShite:

By actual men, I mean men, not women and transwomen. At the end of the day, if a transwoman is legally female, identifies as female and looks female, there's no issue - you won't even realise you're sharing facilities with a transwoman. Seriously.

Obviously if a person actually passes as a woman noone would know? I don't think anyone argued that.

Though someone did try to pretend male people and lesbians were one and the same. So maybe that argument was made and I missed it.

@lunamoth581:

Sex and gender are completely different things, I agree. But misgendering someone, simply because you can't understand how they feel, is not going to solve the issues that we face as women.

If a transwoman is legally a woman, looks like a woman, and identifies as a woman, then there's no issue, as you won't even realise that they're trans.

You're saying that transwomen are female, sienna? Do you honestly, truly believe that? You literally believe that they have changed sex at a biological, cellular level?

Because that is pretty far out there. Changing sex by getting a GRC is basically a legal convention that was put in place to allow transsexuals to marry, back in the days before we had same sex marriage, and to overcome certain legal barriers around employment etc. that were distressing and limiting to them. It's not literally true.

This is the thing. If a transwoman is going about her daily life, minding her own business, what's the problem?

I acknowledge the need to consider further protections for women, I really do, but this doesn't need to involve singling out transwomen.

^^ my post above referring to siennas saying that I am "suggesting that transwomen are male when they're not"

If a transwoman is legally a woman, looks like a woman, and identifies as a woman, then there's no issue, as you won't even realise that they're trans

1. TIMs rarely pass
2. It is likely that TIMs commit crime at the same rate as any other male.

@SophoclesTheFox:

No, I don't believe that transwomen change biological sex when they transition. As I've already said, sex and gender are different concepts entirely.

But if a transwoman looks like a 'woman', behaves like a 'woman' (whatever that even means), and is legally a woman, then I don't see the issue. This is what I'm trying to understand. What is the problem?

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine:

With good surgery/bone structure/makeup, transwomen can definitely pass as women.

And no, I don't believe that transwomen would commit crime at the same rate as men, considering they are not men (transwomen and cis women are probably very similar psychologically).

Let's unpick that, then.

You said they are not "male". "male" is a sex.

Male and female are words we use to denote sex, not gender.

Your post implied that you believe that transwomen are female. This is incorrect, because female means the half of a sexually dimorphic species that produces large gametes and gestates the young. A transwoman, identify as they might, is born male and remains male throughout their life.

It's not me who needs things explained to them here.

@SaucySienna- you're now changing what you said. You initially started men, not women and transwomen. At the end of the day, if a transwoman is legally female, identifies as female and looks female, there's no issue. As pp wrote, do you think male chromosomes change to female with a GRC??

'Tranwomen' actually appear to commit sexual crime at a higher rate than other males.

Of course it could be that the label 'trans' is just oh so tempting for predators. One would wonder why would that possibly be...

Who is misgendering trans women? Is it misgendering to point out the realities of biological sex?

It's helpful to understand that changing sex is a legal fiction. It doesn't mean that in reality, in biological terms, a man has become a woman or vice versa.

If it helps to see what this means, in the eyes of the law a company is a legal person. This doesn't mean that GlaxoSmithKline is going to sign on for benefits in the event that it becomes unemployed, will automatically benefit from A&E treatment if it got pissed and fell over, or is entitled to turn out next polling day and cast its vote in a polling station.

Will this be another thread stuck in the land of obtuse? Maybe we'll be getting a different tag team as a change of scene. That would be nice.

Biological sex is not important. If a transwoman looks like a woman, and has female parts (sex reassignment surgery), then she's a woman. You'd have no way of telling otherwise anyway, as long as the surgery is successful etc.

Look, I'm not going to argue the same thing over and over again. Also, bear in mind that some cis women can be very masculine, and might look like men, so be careful who you label as transwomen.

SaucySienna, you are using Humpty Dumpty language rules. Also too and besides the Feminist movement for the liberation of women is not now nor ever has been an equality for men movement, what with men being the class that is oppressing women.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Biological sex is not important

Oh. It's one of those.

I like that explanation, nauticant (I spend a chunk of my day job at the moment explaining what a natural person is so it hits the spot for me )

Biological sex is not important.

It is to me. Some of my favourite bits are the biological sex bits.

It's not possible to create female sex organs on a male, or vice versa. Sad for those who would like it to be true, but there we are. Medicine has a long way to go in many areas, including many areas of women's health. Boring old biology.

The problem is that you are not saying the truth and do not want to argue it, SaucySienna. They just call it sex reassignment, they do not actually transplant a vagina into a male patient. They castrate the patient and then create a cavity to provide the illusion of a vagina. I thought everyone knew that but I guess not.