Irish referendum - abortion - should men vote?

[Schtinkay]

Fabulous news. Finally a referendum in Ireland to decriminalise abortion. About bloody time.

But should men be allowed to vote on an issue that is about controlling rights, freedoms and bodies of women?

I don't think so. Very interested in thoughts.

I guess maybe because the UK doesn't have a constitution you feel things differently. But as an Irish person, I strongly believe that any amendment to the constitution should be voted for by all citizens. Yes, it's a disgrace that the 8th amendment made it in in the first place, but I am cautiously optimistic it will be voted out. Provided the question posed is a suitable one.

I would also rather have my abortion rights voted on by the population (including men) than by politicians, which is the case in the part of the UK where I am now (NI, which will be much slower to change).

I'm not Irish and I don't have much insight but it seems this vote is long overdue because traditional attitudes are finally dying back. Surely all the pro choice women will have similarly aligned husbands, sons etc?

Or do Irish women argue this one even within their own families?

I'm Irish and I'm not at all confident that anything will change. Ireland in the mid twentieth century was not a million miles away from how we think of strict Muslim societies now - women were non-entities used for breeding. The effect of that goes very deep and is still being felt I think. I don't think things will change for another twenty years.

Wtf is wrong with you? Do you think that men are not also effected by abortions? i find abortion bans ridiculous but I also find the argument that an abortion is solely a matter of a woman's bodily autonomy a deceitful over simplification of a very complex issue of balancing various competing interests.

As far as I'm concerned Ttbb, what's in my uterus is my concern, nobody else's.

Yes the referendum is to make a change to the constitution. If we start deciding who can and can't vote in certain referendums it sets a dangerous precedence.

"I also find the argument that an abortion is solely a matter of a woman's bodily autonomy a deceitful over simplification of a very complex issue of balancing various competing interests."

How do you think a man should be involved in a woman's decision to have an abortion?

I think the pace of social change in Ireland in the last 20 years has been breathtaking. And much, much quicker than in NI (which, granted, not a shining light, but still part of the UK). If you think about it the divorce referendum, which was bitterly contested, was only about 20 years ago. Now they've (would like to say "we've", but I don't live there any more!) legalised gay marriage by public vote, and may well improve reproductive rights. I think the outcome will depend on the question that is asked, but I remain cautiously optimistic that we still tend to underestimate how far we've come.

The influence of the church has waned considerably, even compared to when I left Dublin 10 years ago. I had a civil wedding 6 years ago and it caused much hilarity and consternation. My sister is planning the same next summer and no one has batted an eyelid. The child sex abuse scandals (which shamed us, but now it seems every country has some shame in that regard unfortunately) rocked the public view of the church, people just aren't willing to be dictated to in the same way any more.

As some of you will know, there was a citizen's convention on abortion rights last year (?). The big question was whether it would recommend the removal of the 8th, and what restrictions would it place on abortion (12 weeks? Rape? Incest? FFA?). In the end, the recommendation was to allow full abortion rights on demand up to 40 weeks. I read an article where participants had been interviewed, a number had gone in with strong "pro-life" sentiments, but their views had been swayed by testimony from medical professionals and they now firmly believed in trusting women and their doctors to choose. Nothing emotive. If we can keep the discourse over the next few months in that line, I think there's an excellent chance.

Yes, this will be a brutal fight. It's going to be a long ten months until the vote. But if we can try and keep it civil and informative it might just happen.

That's really encouraging Liv.

Excluding a section of the electorate from a referendum would indeed be a dangerous precedent. And if the referendum passed without the male vote, the issue might become even more contentious and polarised.

I agree Liz from a NI perspective.

That's why I think the referendum is fairer on women. I suspect in NI we may have a chance if it was put to referendum whereas with the current system of policitians voting, there's too much tribal politics keeping in the extremists and there's no chance at all.

Of course men should be allowed vote. It's an amendment to the Irish constitution and every Irish citizen eligible to vote should have a say in the constitution.

I'm hoping the 8th amendment will be repealed, but I refuse to agree that anybody should be disenfranchised just so I can guarantee getting the result I want.

I think the struggle here is the very fact that people are being asked to vote on a medical procedure. It doesn't make any sense.

It's about removing the part of the constitution that puts the life of an unborn child on a par with the life of the woman carrying the child. It's not specifically about a medical procedure and even if the 8th amendment is repealed, it doesn't guarantee abortion will be introduced in Ireland.

In practice, no.

In theory definitely definitely yes.

Also, what others said, there should be no debate nor voting, nor politicians, this should be a standard part of reproductive healthcare and available to all.

We aren't there in most of the UK yet and the situation in NI is terrible.

To say men aren't affected by this is stupid! Do you think dads don't care about their daughters or husbands about wives? Your original post reads to me men will vote against and women for (to me anyway). That will not be the case. Religious views will decide this one not gender.

"To say men aren't affected by this is stupid! "

Of course they are affected. But should they have a say?

Men can also be affected by abortions, don't know why so many think they aren't. Yes, it's not his body, but it's his loved ones body or it could be a woman carrying his baby is and a decision they make together. And of course, abortions aren't just physical, it can affect women AND men psychologically too, with long lasting effects.

Saying men shouldn't vote because it's not them having an abortion, that means women who've had menopause or infertile women or women who choose to never have children should also not vote?

White people who wanted to end slavery of black people, should they have not voted because they weren't slaves? Straight people voted for gay marriage, should they have not voted because they're not gay?

Many men are pro choice too, while many women are against. You can't just say one group of people can't vote.

Yes! They should! I really don't think the issue here will come down to gender it will 100% be religion.
I don't actually agree with a referendum at all the government should grow some balls and make the decision themselves!

Abortion can't be a decision 'made together' though can it? I mean, ultimately the woman has to want to carry the baby to term, otherwise she's being coerced into doing something she doesn't want to do.

fuxake I got it backwards

In practice, yes they will have no vote

In theory no they definitely shouldn't get a vote on this.

will have to vote!

sorry seem incapable of coherence today.

Of course it can be made together- if a women is feeling unsure either way but has a father for the baby there saying "if you want we can do this, we'll manage" etc etc that will affect her choice.- and not in a bad way. It's all circumstance.

No. a decision whether or not to have an abortion has to be the for woman alone. It's not fair- but it's just how it is.

Yes, the father can have input Three, but ultimately if the woman simply doesn't want the baby then she gets to decide surely?