Irish referendum - abortion - should men vote?

[Schtinkay]

Fabulous news. Finally a referendum in Ireland to decriminalise abortion. About bloody time.

But should men be allowed to vote on an issue that is about controlling rights, freedoms and bodies of women?

I don't think so. Very interested in thoughts.

Of course they should vote! Or do you think that everyone who's anti-choice is a man?

Also, WRT rape, when a woman is raped there is still a tendency (though less so now, thankfully) to ask her why she was where she was, what she was wearing, was she drunk. Because deep down the idea is that men will do what they will do and it's up to women to keep out of their way.

Controversial and one-sided as the posters are, they're still not the law. It was just a (in many people's opinions) misguided attempt to increase womens' safety. Yes, they should have had posters saying "don't rape!" but if someone is a rapist, they're not going to look at a poster and think "OK, I won't rape today". They need intensive rehab/psych treatment. Our police are woefully underfunded and the easiest low-budget way is to tell potential victims to keep themselves safe, rather than try and get criminals not to do it.

And actually, there have been loads of education campaigns towards men all about consent, and lots of consent classes at universities aimed at men.

If the law changed to say that women couldn't walk home alone after 9, that would be having rights taken away, but that's not going to happen.

Right, so in a world where millions of women are raped every year, it's acceptable to tell women not to do things? And the excuse is lack of budget? Really?

Women may have rights under the law, but if in practice women are expected to restrict themselves then the law doesn't mean much does it? It's just lip service if no one is actually protecting or enforcing those rights.

If I say women have the right to go out after 9pm, drink what they like, get cabs when they want, and then put up posters everywhere telling women not to do these things, who the fuck am I kidding??

' The Irish constitution states that women shouldn't be compelled by economic necessity to neglect their duties within the home. That principle was put in by men who wantedtheir socks washed

Also coming up for referendum next year, probably in october (article 42.2.1) as well as the blasphemy referendum (Article 40.6.1)'

Glad to hear it existentialmoment

No, I don't think they should be able to, what business is it of theirs? It has absolutely nothing to do with them.

Low budget?

Ffs

It is never ok to produce posters that incite people to say things like "what was she doing out at that time" "why did her friends leave her" "she was warned what did she expect"

No wonder people don't come forward

If I say women have the right to go out after 9pm, drink what they like, get cabs when they want, and then put up posters everywhere telling women not to do these things, who the fuck am I kidding??

That doesn't really hold though - we have a right to drink, smoke, eat as much sugar as we like and weigh 200kg, not to own a house ever and not use any beauty products, but there's still posters up everywhere saying not to do those things.

Also, most crimes (e.g. burglary) have ad campaigns telling the victims to protect themselves (lock the windows and not leave bins next to them). That's not exclusive to rape.

Given that it is men who commit rape, it should, in theory, be just as acceptable use that 'small budget' to tell men to stay at home so that women can go out and have a good time with the fear of being raped. But no one would ever dream of saying that would they? Because men have an absolute right to do what they like. It is women who have to stay out of men's way - their right to go about their lives is up for grabs, even when they are not the ones committing the crimes.

'That doesn't really hold though - we have a right to drink, smoke, eat as much sugar as we like and weigh 200kg, not to own a house ever and not use any beauty products, but there's still posters up everywhere saying not to do those things.

Also, most crimes (e.g. burglary) have ad campaigns telling the victims to protect themselves (lock the windows and not leave bins next to them). That's not exclusive to rape.'

Again where are the posters targeted at MEN?

Don't you think womens rights should he held at a higher level than where to put your wheely bin?

Worth more than a fucking poster blaming you for walking home on your own

Mainly because it's really hard to stop actual crime - unless you lock up everyone.

You can't stop the hardcore nutters unless they've already committed it, then they get rehab in prison. For the people that did it "by accident" (like the men who claimed they didn't know their girlfriend didn't want it), there ARE consent classes and ad campaigns towards men targeting this.

No, I don't think they should be able to, what business is it of theirs? It has absolutely nothing to do with them.

if you hold that position, what business is it of another woman?

Also, can I point out that eating too much sugar does lead to obesity, but drinking does not lead to rape. What leads to rape is a man's decision to rape. So making that comparison, suggesting that all these posters are doing is advising women stop engaging in a choice that harms them is pretty fucking disgusting. I'm hoping that you just didn't think that one through.

And all that is dependant on the victim coming forward.

Which they won't if they walk in the station to see a poster warning them to not get drunk or call an unlicensed cab or whatever.

If women are still completely free to do all of these things then why is there so much victim blaming when they get assaulted whilst doing them?

While feminists see abortion as a feminist issue (and I agree with that), it can also be argued that it's a moral/ethical issue. And as such, the broader community has the right to say if something is acceptable or not.

Less of a legal issue, but it wasn't that long ago that men and women living together without being married was seen as scandalous. Slowly, society as a whole changed its views and while there are surely many people who still think it's wrong, the overall view of our society is that it's okay. That sex before marriage, is okay etc.

I think abortion is complicated because it does come into many different areas of people's lives. As a woman, it's clearly about bodily autonomy and the right to control what we do with our own bodies. But for others in our society it as much a religious or ethical issue. And interestingly, I've read a few blogs and articles over the years from traditionally religious feminist women who struggle with this exact concept. They have sympathy for the bodily autonomy argument, but they have ethical and moral concerns about abortion. For them, it's a real dilemma.

However, I think that when your'e changing your constitution you do need everyone to be able to vote. And yes, that puts abortion more firmly into the ethical/ moral category rather than the feminist category, which feels wrong for me. But overall, I think it's best.

Having said that, abortion being wrong in the constitution in the first place? Make it a law, sure. But blimey, we wouldn't be here in the first place if it hadn't gone there.

Given that it is men who commit rape, it should, in theory, be just as acceptable use that 'small budget' to tell men to stay at home so that women can go out and have a good time with the fear of being raped. But no one would ever dream of saying that would they?

No, it is 1% of men (or whatever) who commit rape. Given that only 1% of men will rape and 100% of women are potential victims, you can either target this 1% of men (which does happen) or 100% of women.

That's like targeting 100% of people and putting a curfew on everyone because 1% of them are burglars.

Theoretically, no they shouldn't, but the democratic process must be upheld.
I strongly disagree with reproductive rights being embedded within the constitution. It is a medical issue, between the woman and her physician (and her partner if she wishes to involve him), but I understand this isn't the case in Ireland, and the legal process must take place. You simply can't chop and change the law whenever it suits.

elevenclips and others-what role do you think a man should take in the decision whether or not a woman should have an abortion?

Nobody should be fucking voting. There should be no popular vote on issues of human rights.

Just as voting on gay marriage was disgusting.

Both these issues should have been put through without asking for a majority 'opinion' on whether some members of our country community should be given basic human and/or rights.

(And/or equal rights that should have said).

White people who wanted to end slavery of black people, should they have not voted because they weren't slaves? Straight people voted for gay marriage, should they have not

In that analogy surely then only black people would be allowed to vote, which yes, is better than white people getting to show that they're on side.

I don't like that it's a vote at all but I admit that they have to let men doing that's the way they're going about it.

But it feels wrong like on a personal level requiring husbands permission for his wife's abortion.