Irish referendum - abortion - should men vote?

[Schtinkay]

Fabulous news. Finally a referendum in Ireland to decriminalise abortion. About bloody time.

But should men be allowed to vote on an issue that is about controlling rights, freedoms and bodies of women?

I don't think so. Very interested in thoughts.

Yes, that's it.

And when we do say things like bodily autonomy we are called feminists (and not in a positive way either).

Of course women understand what bodily autonomy means. It means no FGM, no rape, no coercion, no violence. But mention that phrase and you are a rabid radical feminist and don't you have anything else to worry about?

I never saw a man being forced to ask for bodily autonomy, outside of a repressive regime in the context of torture victims.

I would say that restricting abortion rights to such an extent as is demonstrated by the 8th amendment (so much was it restrictive that further amendments were held to allow freedom of movement for all females and the ability to access medical treatment online and they were successful), is coercion and violence against women, thereby denying them equal rights to bodily autonomy.

Men never face this onslaught.

@Elendon. For example paternity leave. I'm sure there are others.

@Elendon. For example paternity leave. I'm sure there are others.

Hmm, this has been covered already on the thread, but it's not the same as straight people voting on gay marriage. Nor childless MPS voting on things to do with children's issues - they'll have nieces, nephews, other relatives etc who have or are children, or the possibility of having children in the future no matter how remote.

I can't think of anything to do with male bodily autonomy that would be voted on.

Paternity leave has nothing to do with bodily autonomy though. It is a social construct.

I don't understand the rationale behind any of this. If the point is that a man should never be able to tell a woman what to do with her body, then what about women who vote against legalisation? Why is it okay for them to tell other woman (eg. on religious grounds) what they can or cannot do?

I'm sure none of the posters think it is ok for a woman to dictate to another woman on that basis. Like you I'm puzzled what the point of this thread is- particularly as a women only vote potentially would be more restrictive.

I appreciate that the prevailing view here is that this nothing more than a question of bodily autonomy, but surely that's putting the cart before the horse? Lots of people hold the (non-religiously motivated) view that the foetus' rights are as important as the woman's. I don't agree with them, but I don't think they'be batshit crazy either. If 'what rights does the foetus have?' is part of the moral equation, then surely men should be allowed a view on the subject as well as women. If the answer is (effectively) 'none' or 'fewer than the woman' then, brilliant, that's democracy in action

The problem with the bodily autonomy argument is that from an anti-abortion stance it is so easy to counter.

A pregnant woman is in a unique and special position , which does not apply to any men or any non- pregnant women, where another living entity is dependant on her body and only her body.

It does not compare to donor situations no matter how often that analogy gets trotted out.

The argument which works for me is "less rights than the foetus". Perhaps that is splitting hairs as the result is the same but I can certainly understand why "bodily autonomy" would not convince opponents.

Elendon, paternity rights has nothing to do with bodily autonomy; I never said it did. I thought we were talking about voting for things which don't effect you.

Most of this thread has been about denying men a vote on this subject because it doesn't effect them (if you ignore fathers-to-be). Paternity leave doesn't effect female MPs so presumably they shouldn't be able to vote on such matters as well.

The problem with saying less rights than the foetus is that people will counter that with it's a child though and they hate the term foetus, it isn't used in the 8th amendment:

'The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.'

The term used is the unborn. I think semantics will be one of the key players in the run up to the referendum.

Which is why some people argue should rights not then be given to the undead.

You can't generalise though can you Elendon. For example I don't think you can put Casper the Friendly Ghost in the same category as eg. the zombies from Michael Jackson's 'Thriller' video.

@merrygoround51 I agree 100% with you. Also to answer the original question yes I do believe men should vote in this referendum and anecdotally just based on people I know men are far more likely to vote to repeal. I personally think this is a bit like Brexit with everyone assuming the vote will go a certain way and the outcome could be a big shock. I know a lot of people who are pro life and these are all younger women of child bearing age who are not influenced by the church but they have their own firmly held beliefs about when life begins. I find men and older women are more likely to vote to repeal.

I'm not sure about that TheDancingBear It matters not how many weeks they have been undead, undead from the start!

I'm being sarcastic btw in my reply to Thedancingbear (as are they), in case.

I know men are far more likely to vote to repeal I'm intrigued by this. The cynical side of me wonders whether it is so they don't have to face up to the consequences of putting their dick into women without a condom on. It is an easy way out for them.

Perhaps it's the other way though. With women it is perhaps much more personal and they can't see themselves having an abortion when there is a life growing inside you so why should other women?

This referendum will be the nastiest that Ireland will ever see. The debates on Facebook alone show how bad it's going to get. Technically it is not an abortion referendum but a vote to either repeal or maintain the 8th amendment. So If it's repealed it still could take a while before abortion is brought in. At the moment the life of the foetus is equal to the life of the woman in the Irish constitution, the government cannot legislate for abortion while the 8th exists. Abortions are performed but only when The life of The mother is in serious danger. The government will have to play this very carefully because as it stands you have pro life who are totally against abortion, you have pro choice who want abortion at any stage for any reason but the majority of Irish people are some where in the middle. They believe there should be abortion but only for a certain time frame on demand and for later abortions there should be specific reasons. If they try to bring in too lenient abortion laws then I feel it will fail. Yes I do think men should be entitled to vote simply because it's a democracy and a change in the constitution.

I think both reasons apply scallops.

In the case of men I don't think it is even necessary to be as cynical as you put it
It is often said on here that if men don't want to risk paying for a baby then don't have sex. You can turn that around, rape aside , if women don't want to risk having a baby- don't have sex.

I don't think it is unreasonable when weighing up how to vote for a man to consider the situation where neither he nor the mother is in a position to support a child fiscally or emotionally.

Obviously it is only the woman who should have any say in whether an abortion happens or not but I would not denigrate a man who voted to repeal for this personal and selfish reason rather than loftier ideals.

It is not an easy way out but it opens up a potential way out if the woman wants it.

Yes of course. Abortion isn't just about women it's about a human life and in what circumstances another person should be allowed to bring an end to that life. That's a question for all of us.

I know a lot of people who are pro life and these are all younger women of child bearing age who are not influenced by the church but they have their own firmly held beliefs about when life begins.

That's me! I'm a feminist too.

If you knew anything about the 8th intherose you'd know this isn't about "when life begins" it's so typical of those to turn #repealthe8th into an anti abortion/pro choice debate.