Irish referendum - abortion - should men vote?

[Schtinkay]

Fabulous news. Finally a referendum in Ireland to decriminalise abortion. About bloody time.

But should men be allowed to vote on an issue that is about controlling rights, freedoms and bodies of women?

I don't think so. Very interested in thoughts.

This is the third referendum on the issue. Roughly one every 10 years since the 8th amendment

That is a misleading/wrong statement. There has not been any previous referendum to repeal the 8th amendment. None. There were 3 referendums, all on the same date in 1992, to add more amendments. The 12th, to tighten the laws against abortion still further, which was rejected, the 13th to safeguard the right to travel which passed and the 14th to guarantee the right to information about abortion.
There was also the failed 25th amendment in 2002 which was basically another attempt at the 12th.

i think it's quite narrow minded to suggest only women should have a say on this, but then again that's typical of modern feminism.

I think women normally discuss it with their partners if it's safe to do so but what do you expect would happen if partners had an actual say? Forced abortion? Would you tolerate that in the interests of poor old men not being left out?

"
I think women normally discuss it with their partners if it's safe to do so but what do you expect would happen if partners had an actual say?"
This question has been asked repeatedly on this thread and studiously ignored.

The man involved should be consulted when the pregnant woman wants his advice/support/opinion. They have no right to consultation for reasons of safety of the pregnant woman.

I don't have a problem with men having a vote on this issue . Men have mothers , girlfriends , sisters etc who may have experienced this issue . Just because you have a Y chromosome and a penis that doesn't mean you are uncaring and insensitive . I've personally never come across a man who doesn't view this issue as a woman's right to choose within the law although as indeed with women there will be some out there who feel it's just wrong .

I think women normally discuss it with their partners if it's safe to do so but what do you expect would happen if partners had an actual say? Forced abortion? Would you tolerate that in the interests of poor old men not being left out?

Again, I'm not talking about individual case by case basis, but all people should have a say on something which affects legislation.
You can't just segregate 50% of the population from a democratic decision by saying it doesn't apply to them. It isn't about should couple a, b, or c have an abortion- it's should that option be available to them or ultimately the woman who would have the final say.

Men help 'make' the babies, men are expected to co parent their children, men would certainly help pay for the abortions (either directly or via tax).

If you want fully involved men, they should vote. men and women live together in society and are jointly responsible for looking after one another. Should women be allowed to treat male health conditions in the NHS?

"If you want fully involved men, they should vote. men and women live together in society and are jointly responsible for looking after one another"

So what say do you think men should have in whether or not a woman has an abortion?

And incidentally, on the subject of "fully involved men" and "men being on board" and what women should do to make that happen- why aren't men fully involved and on board because they are compassionate people with hearts and minds and empathy? Surely they aren't looking on waiting to be asked nicely enough?

'And incidentally, on the subject of "fully involved men" and "men being on board" and what women should do to make that happen- why aren't men fully involved and on board because they are compassionate people with hearts and minds and empathy? Surely they aren't looking on waiting to be asked nicely enough?'

Hear hear.

So what say do you think men should have in whether or not a woman has an abortion?

They should (and do) have a vote on the the constitution of their country. They should have a say in the laws of their country.
On an individual level they should have no say of any kind on whether any individual woman has an abortion.

'They should (and do) have a vote on the the constitution of their country. They should have a say in the laws of their country.
On an individual level they should have no say of any kind on whether any individual woman has an abortion.'

Surely that's a total contradiction? Essentially what you're saying is that men can prevent every single woman in their country from having an abortion, but not an individual woman that they're in a relationship with

You can't just segregate 50% of the population from a democratic decision by saying it doesn't apply to them. It isn't about should couple a, b, or c have an abortion- it's should that option be available to them or ultimately the woman who would have the final say.

This. I'll be voting next year, as will my boyfriend, as it affects the laws of the country we're citizens of.

On a personal level, if I get pregnant with his baby, the final say on a termination would still come down to me.

No, it's not a contradiction at all. It's REALITY.

This is exactly what I'm talking about' this is not a philosophical debate, this is our reality. It is actually happening, now.

Yes, what's actually happening is that men put a clause in the constitution to control women and now they're asking people to vote to take that clause out. Would they ask for a vote to take out a clause that prevented, say, black people from accessing medical care? I doubt it, because it would make them look like a bunch of arseholes who think that the rights of black people are up for debate.

In reality, no one should have a say in what any woman does with her own body. But that's the whole bloody point, we shouldn't have to have a referendum on this in the first place.
I also felt uncomfortable with voting in the same sex marriage referendum - I shouldn't have had a say in whether gay people were granted their rights to equal treatment.
My dh feels strongly that men shouldn't be able to vote, but they have an opportunity to have a say in how our country progresses and to protect the rights of women. I'm not sure there is a male/female divide on this issue.
The whole thing is a fucking mess and I am dreading it, tbh.

My instincts are that men shouldn’t have a vote, but then following the natural progression of that argument, as people have said, do menopausal women or infertile women get a vote.

It is also setting an agenda for the future and other votes could be restricted to discreet groups ie taxation referendums only for the higher tax payers.

I hope that logic prevails and Irish women are given the right to a safe choice of termination if needed, when pregnant.

TheSparrowhawk, there are many, many women who voted in favour of that clause and many who will oppose it's removal.
It's all very well arguing about it hypothetically, but the reality is that the constitution cannot be changed without a referendum.
Any attempt to do otherwise would result in years of legal wrangling, which I'm sure the anti-abortion groups in the US would be only too delighted to fund.
This is a pointless debate for those of us actually living in Ireland and having to deal with the issue.

I understand the mechanics of the situation VeryThing - I'm Irish and I get the whole referendum thing. But the very idea that women's right to access medical care is prevented by the constitution still makes me sick.

It doesn't matter what should be happening, what should or should not have been done before. We don't have time for this bollox, we have to deal with the reality of what we have.

Men can and will vote. But since both men and women are equally represented in the 70+% of people who want to repeal the 8th, what does it actually matter? It doesn't.

In practical terms, no one's going to prevent men from voting. Because that would be awful wouldn't it? Only monsters would do that. We'll just ignore the fact that men prevented women from voting until less than 100 years ago, that's water under the bridge, let's forget about it.

The thing that is significant here is the fact that this situation exists at all. There's no legal way around it, but it's worth remember why we're here in the first place.

Yes men should have a vote. Unfortunately the constitution doesnt allow this but ideally the government would legislate for the provision of abortion and then whoever wanted one could choose to have one.
However that is not what Ireland is going to get and I fear that the tone of the argument is already going to put off people from voting or indeed for voting for the provision of abortion.

I am pro choice myself but the belief that life begins at conception is deeply or sometimes just vaguely held by many.

Some of these people can be convinced by reasoned and logical arguments for repealing the 8th but these are not the voices being heard at the moment, it is all voices from the same group of women - middle class and work in the arts or media

I worry that the Repeal the 8th campaign has learned nothing from the masterful marriage referendum campaign and are approaching the campaign in a way that is going to 'put off' many voters - dressing up as handmaids outside the parliament etc. The Marriage Ref campaign knew that they needed to present as 'mainstream' an argument as possible so they deliberately sidelined some of the activists they knew might be controversial, they decided to really try not to 'scare the horses' so to speak and this worked.

More "women; play nice" rhetoric. Dial it down, don't be loud, don't use the truth, pander to the anti choicers.
Well fucking fuck that for a lark.

It's going to pass anyway.

What happens if the vote goes against repeal?

Maybe we'll start setting fire to things, fuck knows. It's not going to though.