DEBATE NOT HATE: WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT GENDER

[blackistheneworange]

Sorry if this is on here already but just seen it on twitter.

It's this Wednesday in Brighton which may be too short notice for me but you can book here. www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/debate-not-hate-we-need-to-talk-about-gender-tickets-38129665857/amp

What are they thinking about someone like you? Well, given that they express gender separate from sex, I hope they would assert that right for everyone, including you who say sex is a binary.

But do they? They seem to conflate gender and sex - you spoke above as non-binary gender - a personal gender, projected as you see fit, without reference to a person's sex. In my experience though, that's not what's said. They say they're non-binary sex - ie not male or female (which isn't a belief, it's how babies are made). Then they project their conservative beliefs on me - suggesting that because I know there are two sexes, that that means I'm invalidating them as non-binary.

Whereas from a plain reading, we both actually think the same way about gender - that no-one gets to tell me how to act or what to wear based on my gonads.

It's conservative to be non-binary, because you're saying that whilst you agree with me, that your sex doesn't say anything about you as a person, a non-binary conservatively still keeps the tight bond between sex and gender, and tries to declare themselves sexless (which obviously can't be true for the vast majority of people), rather than just breaking the bond and acknowledging their unchangeable sex, and throwing away the idea of gender (actually rebelling)

Oh, and no.. most women I know are a total mix of masculine and feminine - actually like most people I know. Yet still it's the women having the babies, and the men skiving off the housework... no matter whether I describe them as 'they' or not.

Someone has to do the shitwork eh? Women don't kick against it because often they know there is no point.

because often they know there is no point.

Yep. You do what's in front of you, you take the joy where you find it, and then the blokes wonder why once the kids are grown their wives divorce them. Fucking take a look at how she's been living. How would you feel if that was you.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-41502661/100-women-i-transitioned-and-lost-my-male-privilege

As part of the BBC 100 Women series.

100 Women: 'I transitioned and lost my male privilege'

"Male privilege" is the concept that men have certain advantages within society for no other reason than the fact they are men.

Tech entrepreneur Dr Vivienne Ming, who is transgender, discovered this in her thirties when she transitioned.

In her role as chief scientist at a tech industry recruitment firm she has also calculated the value of this advantage.

In what way has this person lost one iota of their male privilege exactly?

It seems to me that people who identify as non-binary are finding a way for themselves to deal with gender in society as they find it. Whether in general men are masculine and women feminine or not, that person does not conform. It is a personal thing. The person is non-binary, so projects gender as they wish, not the gender the conservative would say is right for them because of their gonads.

Gender has nothing to do with gonads. Sex does though.

This constant mixing up of sex and gender is what got us into this almighty mess in the first place!

Near every person on this earth is 'non-binary' by definition. As not many people, if any at all, are walking stereotypes of masculinity or femininity. So quite why some think 'non-binary' is anything special is beyond me. Its especially annoying when these same people insist on shoving everyone else into the ridiculous 'cis' box. Ohhh its so awful to assume someones gender, but you are cis and have no say about it even if you believe the whole notion of gender is bullshit!

What I always find amusing when TAs start their crap, is how sure they are that we 'terfs' are 'cis'. When 99 times of 100, us terfs think gender in itself is just bollocks and that we don't have a 'gender identity' at all. Which would technically make us a-gender, genderqueer, whatever.

Getting rid of 'gender' totally would help the huge majority of people. Just let people be themselves. Its really that simple. Yes a few would still exist who have sex dysphoria and that dysphoria may be alleviated somewhat by surgeries and such, and if it is, great. As long as the decision is made by an adult person and should never be presented to children as a 'cure' for being a male who likes dresses and playing with dolls, as it currently is.

Kind of wish we could all just go back to the times before the crazy. before the rabid misogynistic fetish orientated transactivists took over. Before we were expected to believe in female penises, told that cancer drugs were harmless for children, and before so many people totally lost their minds and thought it was fine to be throwing male rapists in prison with females. More and more people seem to be waking up to how batshit this whole thing is though now. I am getting hopeful that this self-identify rubbish is stopped in its tracks before it causes some serious damage.

Actual law is being changed to force all of us who reject gender identity to accept it as being primary over sex. So we will vociferously challenge ‘gender identity’ and non binary identities wherever we find it infringing on our rights and freedoms.

Well yes, this is the top and bottom of it in a nutshell. Quite why people discussing this, and how it affects everyone, is such a bad and evil thing is beyond me.

100 Women: 'I transitioned and lost my male privilege'

I listened to (some) of this, and seems to be the recognition that after transition, people stopped asking them maths questions, or assuming they could do technical stuff. Plus calculating that to get paid the same, women need more experience, more time at college etc etc.

That women get underpaid etc etc cos we are female. Which women have been saying for ages, but this person gets all surprised because they did not realize that transitioning might mean this happening to them.

Okay, glad they are saying this, but (slightly?) annoyed that this will probably have more clout when a (former) man says it, than when only women were saying it...............Plus indicates how men, even men who were possibly non-gender conforming when they were younger (hence might have been hoped they might have some insight into the effects of gender), either didn't listen to what women were saying, or didn't care. Even when it was women in the same industry. Nope, women just got underpaid and ignored 'cos they weren't as good, not because they were women.

Actually, the more I think the more annoyed I get -- just shows how men don't listen to what women and feminists say, and have been saying for years, and only give a fig when it suddenly applies to them too cos they have transitioned................

TO

"Isn't this classic 'hepeating'?"
That's the word! Much better than my rambling rant.

Plus means they get into the BBC '100 Women' series (unlike all us boring ole feminists who have been talking about this stuff for years and years and years............).

The more I think, the more annoyed I get at this appropriation of our experience, and our space to talk about our experience. Probably tell us we have been doing our complaining all wrong next, or expect extra cookies cos they have calculated how much women lose out (cos the plain ole women who have done those calculations obviously can't be trusted to have got them right!)...................

Women have been saying this for decades, but it takes a man in a dress to say the same thing AND BE LISTENED TOO

He is a woman now. They will smile and nod and ignore and nothing will change

What I always find amusing when TAs start their crap, is how sure they are that we 'terfs' are 'cis'. When 99 times of 100, us terfs think gender in itself is just bollocks and that we don't have a 'gender identity' at all. Which would technically make us a-gender, genderqueer, whatever.

They are so sure we're "cis" because it's meaningless and they know it. It's just a nasty little label they use to set up a false narrative of female privilege over males.

'Cis' is an attempt to make women wear the prefix.

YY. Fuck that.

Who has the list? You know, the one that has all the personality traits, behaviours, clothing options and such like that is used to divide the population.

FirstShinyRobe

Exactly. What is the knowledge? Where is the behaviour? What do the clothes look like?

What is the actual stuff that divides people by gender?

It's a shame some willingly adopt "cis" as a prefix, then talk about "cis privilege" as if "cis women" (women) have "privilege" over people born male. It's very effective as it silences objections to misogyny, places women in the position of "the privileged" thus meaning it's perfectly acceptable to abuse and attack as it's the "oppressed" hitting back against the "privileged" - a means of defending male violence as well as silencing women I think.

Absolutely no way do many women, including myself, accept the use of the word 'cis'.

If that's a response to my post I said "some".

Yes, I know, you said it was a shame that some willingly adopt 'cis'.

I wanted to point out that many women don't as, in my experience, if someone doesn't do this, this point gets lost.

I don't know why there's a need to post in such an aggressive manner. It is a shame some accept "cis", I wasn't insinuating most do but posting why I think it's damaging

I wasn't being aggressive. Simply concise.

“So quite why some think 'non-binary' is anything special is beyond me”

I think that’s the point I’m angsting over most at the moment - the pure navel gazing entitlement of the whole trans rights movement. Comparatively few people actually get to be whatever or whoever they want to be in life. I wanted to be something I’m not, I’ve struggled with my body and my appearance at times in my life (who hasn’t!), but I’ve never asked anyone else to change in order to accommodate me or blamed others for my own situation.

You can jump up and down and stamp your feet as much as you want, but you can’t deny the facts or circumstances of your birth. If you are born in a first world country to parents who love and provide for you then you are already more privileged than a high percentage of the world population. To fabricate “oppression” from this position of privilege because you feel you should perhaps have been born as someone else, or because you feel you want to be someone else, is the height of entitlement.