DEBATE NOT HATE: WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT GENDER

[blackistheneworange]

Sorry if this is on here already but just seen it on twitter.

It's this Wednesday in Brighton which may be too short notice for me but you can book here. www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/debate-not-hate-we-need-to-talk-about-gender-tickets-38129665857/amp

I think it's certainly more thought through than giving the transactivists exactly what they want! Which seems to be all that's on the table currently.

social presentation.

I like it. It covers a multitude.

Yes. But no need for compelled pronouns.

This is a really interesting thread and I'm really grateful to the incredible women who organised and spoke at the Brighton conference and for everyone who helps me to understand this issue through their discussion on here.

I had a thought today when I came home to an envelope addressed to 'Mrs' Jellies, even though I've now been Miss for several years. It always smarts a little because of the symbolism and all the layers of hurt. Marital status is also a protected characteristic. Is missgendering all that different to being called Mrs when I am no longer a Mrs or accidentally being called sir when someone sees me from the back in jeans and a sweater. It's hurtful/painful/irritating/embarrassing but this happens to women pretty often, especially if you're not married or divorced. My daughter was also often mistaken for a boy when she was very small and used to get upset at nursery but it wasn't the end of the world and we all get over that stuff. Is it really that big a deal or literal violence?

I think I'm relating all of the above to pronouns, sorry.

Ohthegrandolddukeofyorkjellies

I totally understand that gender dysphoria can be triggered by being misgendered.

What I can't agree with is being forced to do it. Because people, men, will exploit it.

I want to retain the right, in the face of an obnoxious 6 foot four bloke telling me that I'm committing a crime whilst he misogynises all over me, that he can fuck off bloke-ing me into submission.

They're clearly not all genuine sufferers of gender dysphoria. But most transactivists adopt the "misgendering is death" stance.

The 'triggering' discussion is part of this phenomenon, the whole 'safe space' idea.

What is the proper definition of 'triggered' in this context, does anyone know? I'm aware of it as vocabulary from PTSD and severe trauma reactions rather than meaning 'offended', but what a person happens to have their trauma triggered by is completely subjective. It can be a smell, a sound, a flickering light, a tone of voice.

Is it appropriate for individuals to expect society and others to hold the responsibility for not triggering them rather than develop the resilience and emotional skills to withstand experiences that are linked to challenging emotions and thoughts? Is that a fair burden to put on others? Is that an abnegation of personal responsibility?

Accidentally misgendering someone or using the wrong language is so easy to do, and it's radically different in intent from calling someone intentionally ugly, violent, hurtful and derogatory names, or making someone feel threatened and intimidated. Should that REALLY be the subject of law and enforcement?

Sorry, I wasn't clear at all. I totally object to enforced pronouns and the point I was trying to make is that there many ways in which people are hurt, often unwittingly, by people getting their name, sex, assuming they are heterosexual, married etc and, because we're all dealing with our own shit, it can often be hurtful. But the person didn't mean to be hurtful and that's life and you can, of course, correct the person that made the mistake or ask them to change their language. I don't see why pronouns can be enforcable and why gender is so very much worthy of protection that other characteristics, such as the fact that I am no longer Mrs and to be accidentally referred to as such hurts like hell. Does that make sense? I think the situation in Canada is terrifying.

I have a colleague who is gender non-binary but is biologically female and presents according to female gender stereotypes. I have been told to check for pronouns at the start of every new conversation. It feels like bullying. A really big power trip.

Should've proofread, sorry.

Would compulsory checking for pronouns at the start of every exchange be the logical conclusion, in official/professional contexts at least, of gender identity being a protected characteristic? How would that actually work in practice for, let's say, a supply teacher in a classroom of thirty 15-year-olds, some of whom were genderfluid?

I'm honestly not calling up an extreme case in order to be ridiculous, btw. Any length of time spent browsing through Tumblr would show you that.

I'm in education. Things are getting very tricky indeed with regards to how I talk to children during sex education (The colleague to which I refer upthread isn't school staff, but from a multi-agency). I hate it.

*to whom

I agree Jellies

A friend's daughter identifies as trans/non binary and her mum put up a video for friends and family for the daughter to explain pronouns and the ones they would prefer. I thought great, very helpful, good idea.

It was about fifteen minutes long talking to camera, with a lot of description of how on one day they preferred some pronouns and on another day different pronouns and there was no conclusion or clear information at the end. They're early twenties rather than young teens. I'm afraid I was left wondering in the real world whether in the workplace there is realistically time for clients, employers and employees to all dedicate to this, and where the line was. There also didn't seem to be an implication of reciprocation: (in staff meetings I attend of 25 plus people, do we all get 15 minutes to discuss our chosen identity and pronouns, because who is to know who identifies how without asking) or is this an 'additional to and different from' that is extended to specifically self identified people who ask for it as with a disability? Where is the line here between a necessary adaptation to enable someone fair and equal opportunity and access/respect, and is there a point at which this starts to become self indulgent or just not realistic or reasonable?

Making gender identity a protected characteristic shouldn't lead to mandatory checking of pronouns (though I easily see organisations drawing up guidance to that effect for their staff...)

What it should mean is that it would be an offence to deliberately and with malicious intent misgender someone. Not just calling someone "sir" when they want to be called "madam", but only when they have asked to be addressed as "madam", and the offending individual refuses to do so and continues to call them "sir" in order to humiliate them. I would lobby to include "cis" as misgendering when someone has asked not to be referred to as such.

That's how I would construct such a law too.

I would also suggest that offensive words such as "tranny" and "terf" be included in the definition of hate crime, if we were to go down this route of legislation

That's how I would construct such a law too

Random word crept in

I nicked this from Twitter, so it could well have been posted by one of you on there.

I have friends with teenage daughters who 'identify' as boys. They look like girls. Their lives must be an endless litany of correcting people when they misgender them.

I know someone else who identifies as non-binary and prefers the pronoun 'they/them' but they dress/look in a very stereotypically feminine way and are married to a man. They are also constantly 'misgendered' apparently

You can't possibly expect your boss or the greengrocer or the ticket office bloke on the tube to recognise you as not a woman when you look just like one.

It's just an absolute nonsense. I'm actually embarrassed for them.

is there a point at which this starts to become self indulgent or just not realistic or reasonable?

Yes. I also see it as a way of exerting power over people. I don't want to see it further codified in law. It is and should only be a courtesy.

I have been told to check for pronouns at the start of every new conversation. It feels like bullying. A really big power trip.

It absolutely is. I'm constantly amazed people can't see it when it's as blatant as that. Your pronouns changing every five minutes, what fucking nonsense. So many of these people are narcissistic IME.

I actually can’t think of the last time I had to declare a preferred pronoun. My passport application, perhaps? It’s just not something that comes up in normal conversation, for boring old me, anyway.

People who use wacky pronouns must walk about sort of pre-announcing themselves and making constant declarations of their gender, yes? How very tedious for all concerned.

So many of these people are narcissistic IME.

And it can't possibly work in real life.

There was that Twitter exchange where someone trans objected to a painting/sculpture of a woman displaying her genitals, as it was triggering.

Which led to the inevitable OMG, did you just assume the model's gender?

Playing them at their own game, you would never be able to utter the word man, woman, he or she, without checking first.

And, given it can all change on a dime, every minute of every day will be taken up with checking.

And piss taking.

I have a colleague who is gender non-binary but is biologically female and presents according to female gender stereotypes. I have been told to check for pronouns at the start of every new conversation. It feels like bullying. A really big power trip.

And it sounds exhausting.
I'd probably avoid talking to the person altogether - not out of malice nor any prejudice, but I wouldn't want to walk on egg shells worrying about getting it wrong. Am I right in saying that it's classed as 'Hate speak'? Dear God.

I'm just a regular MN'er who has reached peak trans after something caught my eye a couple of years ago. I haven't a bloody clue about the 50 or so gender types and can imagine that all these rules and legislation about 'offending' folk are so divisive and I'm weary just reading about them!

I'm a bit sick of this bull shit actually.

It's just an absolute nonsense. I'm actually embarrassed for them

Yup
And surely you’d get bored of constantly asserting your pronouns to people? And forgot yourself and answer to ‘she’ and forget to answer to ‘they’? How tedious and self absorbed

I wonder if it might be good for you to accept Millennials specifying their pronouns and gender. Ideally, we would not be ashamed or worried at any kind of gendered behaviour, masculine or feminine, but I feel terms like "non-binary" or "gender-queer" can be used as permission. Feeling their way into behaving as they wish without recognising gendered restrictions they call themselves "non-binary" and reason that non-binary people can behave in this particular way. Some people refer to "name-gender", as in, my gender is Clare rather than any particular classification. I am wholly and idiosyncratically me. That could be narcissistic or self indulgent, or it could be a way of putting into words, and feeling ones way into reasonable self-expression.

I see the objection to hormones and surgery, and why people might campaign against that, but the words themselves could help subvert gender, and move people towards greater freedom of expression. There would be less demand for surgery.