TRANS HEALTH MANIFESTO

[ALittleBitOfButter]

I'm choking on my porridge. This Trans Health manifesto is...just...gosh.

I've only skim read it but they don't seem to have included Female Genital Mutilation on their list of bad things done to bodies. Interesting!

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/09/20/trans-health-manifesto/#more-10439

Lass, I'm not 'clinging' on to anything. I am being pragmatic.

People with in health and education are looking for gender resources so they can be inclusive to people who identify as trans and non binary. One needs to be produced that is compatible with feminism and science also. They are not looking to be sex inclusive because they assume they already are. The resource would discuss sex and gender, I don't see the problem you have really. Well, I have an inkling and that is what I am saying doesn't fit with what you think a feminist 'should' say because it is not what you have read. Should I apologise for actually thinking about this instead of regurgitating the ideas which have already being mooted?

I agree with you lass, and I'm not entirely sure what pondering means because it sounds complicated.

But you talking about football demonstrates that it's not a gendered activity.

There really aren't any that are innate. We know that. So saying them out loud tends to prove it.

It does wind me up a little when we talk about trans people adopting the stereotypical roles of the other sex. Because they don't. It's just about presentation.

The actual roles that are damaging to women are things like the assumption that they will do the housework and wife work and that they are there for sex and to be decorative.

Transwomen reject the former and embrace the latter. Cherry picking the bits they want, because they're men and they can.

They want to be treated as sexually desirable whilst not wanting to do any of the grunt work that gets lumped onto women. Typically male thinking.

I don't think talking about football, baking etc, would work. No one truly believes that they are gendered.

It's about an attitude which leads to women being viewed as lesser.

Lass
The impression I take from reading on FWR is that the only relevant discussion about gender is that it is an artificial social construct we should be rid of.

Have you read this thread? Here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3042056-debate-not-hate-we-need-to-talk-about-gender

The thing the schools should be asking is what is gender?

It's either in an innate feeling, in which case bloody well describe it. (Because you can't).

Or it's stereotypical roles, but even they will not stand up to scrutiny.

I am talking about a gender resource aimed towards educators with activities such as this:

A good resource could have those cardboard cut outs of dolls which clothes and hair can be attached to. The base dolls would detail the reproductive organs and the children would be shown how to identify which doll is which sex. The dolls would then be covered by different clothes and given different hair and then children would be asked to identify their sex (they would not be able to because the reproductive organs would be concealed). The clothed dolls could then be put into storyboard scenes showing occupations. The children would be asked identify their sex and be shown they would not be able to

Which I posted on another thread.

And activities such as this:

Another activity with the dolls and clothes. A child could be asked if they think any of the clothes and hairstyles belong to either sex. If they did, they could sort them. They could sort the storyboards scenes, as to which sex belongs in them, too. They could then be told these are their owngender beliefs or perceptions. They could be then given some information / shown a video which disproves sexual stereotypes. They would be then asked to do the same activity again. If any children change their minds they can be shown how beliefs/perceptions can change.

Schools are not asking 'What is gender?' though. They probably assume they know. They want resources to talk to pupils about gender inclusivity. Those resources, if well written, would clearly talk about what gender is, however.

Which is nonsense. Because you can tell what sex someone is despite what they're wearing.

So stupid. Why don't women all just wear three-piece suits, then we won't get raped or murdered.

Would you link me to that thread, or that resource. Sorry, I think I've missed it.

You were on that thread, Datun. Here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3042902-Gender-Identity-Explained?pg=3

And people can very successfully disguise what sex they are. This is an important message.

My point is, there that either sex can change their appearance but not their actual sex. Take the grooming and clothes away and their biological sex is the same.

So stupid. Why don't women all just wear three-piece suits, then we won't get raped or murdered.

I don't know why you being so adversarial regarding my suggestions really, Datun. Did I suggest women should all wear 3 piece suits?

ponderingprobably

No, no, that wasn't directed at you! Sorry.

It's the assumption that you can disguise your sex effectively. I'm not saying you can't ever, but the trans narrative goes that unless you know, literally know what sex someone is you can't make an assumption.

And even then, according to the trans-narrative they might be intersex, so unless you've done a chromosome test, you still don't know.

It's all just a very clunky way of pretending that people cannot tell men from women.

Thanks for the link.

I think we have to concede that people can disguise their sex, if they really want to, Datun. It is useful, too, to illustrate the difference between sex and gender and also to challenge sexual stereotypes.

And tbh, I think if I disguised my breasts and wore stereotypically male clothing and no make up I would look as if I were male. I know this because I am undergoing chemo and have seen what I look like with a buzz cut and no makeup! There are also loads of androgynous looking models on the catwalk. I am still a woman though and identify myself as one!

ponderingprobably

I'm not saying it can't be done. I think we're on the same page.

There are over 1500 genetic differences, physically and biologically between men and women.

It's simply not that easy to disguise.

And of course, you're right, even if you do, it doesn't alter your sex.

The trans-ideology constantly talks about situations which are remote, in order to bolster up a situation that is very far from remote.

It's manipulative and, until now, it's been working.

Which ever way one describes gender, at the end of the day, it's still meaningless. Propagation of the species is not based on gender. Neither is oppression.

. I'm sorry you've been ill.

Thanks Datun.

The trans-ideology constantly talks about situations which are remote, in order to bolster up a situation that is very far from remote.

It's manipulative and, until now, it's been working.

Well, it really doesn't have to change our actual argument. We can reference exactly the same situations and show how appearances can change but sex doesn't. Also that some experiences are exclusive to a particular biological sex, such as giving birth - even if a person prefers to identify with how they perceive the gender, of the biological sex opposite to them, to be. Transactivism can be manipulated but we don't have to be manipulated and by engaging others, with the arguments on the table, we can ensure they aren't manipulated either.

And I think if this small concession, regarding successful changes in appearance to disguise sex, were made it might, just might, enable a properly inclusive gender resource, that offends neither mainstream transgender and non binary people, nor feminists, nor the scientific community. Which is what we need.

And just to throw this 'pink' or 'blue brain' stuff out of the water we could introduce the concept of our brains being, realistically, more like 'rainbows', with a myriad of different attributes and qualities no matter what biological sex we are....

Rainbows sound more exciting than pink and blue....