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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

TRANS HEALTH MANIFESTO

294 replies

ALittleBitOfButter · 20/09/2017 22:35

I'm choking on my porridge. This Trans Health manifesto is...just...gosh.

I've only skim read it but they don't seem to have included Female Genital Mutilation on their list of bad things done to bodies. Interesting!

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/09/20/trans-health-manifesto/#more-10439

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5
busyboysmum · 26/09/2017 23:18

I'd put F F

Although I don't often wear dresses but I do wear make up and dye my hair.

I don't feel feminine but I'm sure people who know me would describe me as such.

Italiangreyhound · 26/09/2017 23:46

I am quite feminine, although I wear trousers most of the time. But I cannot see what my gender identity' (I don't feel I have one) is anything to do with filling in a form. The form should be asking about my sex because it is medical and therefore maybe relevant; or because it is to do with inequality, therefore measuring how many female or males are employed somewhere or use a service.

So just the one F for me!

Italiangreyhound · 26/09/2017 23:46

tygr you mention the Horizon's programme. Can I ask what you thought of it? (Without derailing!)

tygr · 27/09/2017 00:14

I didn't see all of it greyhound but the bit that made meHmmwas the woman saying how she was always a "true girl" because she always liked to wear pretty things. And I thought well, I am a "true girl" and I hated wearing 'pretty' things and still do! Yet I am a woman.

Seemed to be perpetuating an inauthentic stereotype of what being a woman is.

Then we saw close up graphic scenes of yer new vagina being constructed.

So that was something. I was far less shocked at the scenes of surgery than the earlier scenes of twirling in the boutique.

tygr · 27/09/2017 00:18

And as a bisexual 'cis' woman who feels free and able to sleep with other women, wear my hair short, wear my hair long, wear no make up, wear make up, wear clothes from the men's department or clothes from the women's, I wonder why so many people are so hung up on various binaries.

But then we are all different... I would never in a million years want to mess with my body or want anyone I love to do it either though...

Italiangreyhound · 27/09/2017 00:25

tygr there is a thread on the feminist chat page about it so I've commented there.

I asked my GP if I could have any medication as I am feeling really 'old' after the menopause. My GP said no, she didn't want to give me a stroke (I don't fancy that either!) But it dos make me wonder how all these people are getting hormones and treatment. Surely there are risks. Maybe it is felt the risk of not treating is worse.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/09/2017 00:32

I would say F F

And I'm a gender non-confirming F if the stereotypes of what femininity is that I've just seen on horizon are anything to go by

You have lost me. If your sex is female you would put F but you are "gender non conforming" why would you put your gender as "F"?

tygr · 27/09/2017 01:07

Well, I only meant by that that I don't look like a stereotypical woman doing stereotypically womanly things - but not many women do -certainly not in the twirly, wearing pretty things in a boutique way. I identify as female. But I'm aware that I'm less stereotypically feminine than many women.

Does that make sense?

I don't have a gender identity. Many people that I speak to in the LGBT circles I socialise in sometimes have while sentences to describe their gender identity. I'm glad I'm 40 and not 14 to be honest.

tygr · 27/09/2017 01:08

*whole sentences

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/09/2017 01:19

Does that make sense?

No. I don't follow why if you say you don't have a gender identity you would tick "F" for gender.

It would make more sense to leave the gender box blank as Italiangreyhound said. I would choose F for sex and F for gender but I definitely think of myself as feminine and I am very feminine.

ArbitraryName · 27/09/2017 08:11

I'd tick F F because I am female and the gendered box that society has put me in is 'feminine' (due to being female). I don't have any sort of internal gender identity, but I do have one imposed from the outside, even if I often do not like it or recognise some of it in myself.

I find the ideas that (a) identity is all that matters and (b) identity is somehow essential deeply depressing as well as inaccurate. I'm certain that getting people to focus on personal identity as an individual essence is a really excellent way of diverting attention from the things that actually matter and would make a difference in people's lives.

tygr · 27/09/2017 08:28

Um - because I'm female.

So you're more female than me because you're more feminine? That's beginning to sound like the crap the lesbian community spout to each other about. Won't even open that can of worms.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/09/2017 08:51

Um - because I'm female

So you're more female than me because you're more feminine? That's beginning to sound like the crap the lesbian community spout to each other about. Won't even open that can of worms

We are talking at cross purposes. The majority of posters on this part of the forum reject gender as nothing more than an artificial social construct and say they have no gender or even, given they do not conform to traditional feminine roles, could call themselves "trans". That last part is not said by them seriously but as an indication of how silly the idea is.

Therefore I'm completely puzzled why you say you are "gender non conforming/ have no gender" yet would tick F for gender. The 2 statements contradict each other.

Lancelottie · 27/09/2017 08:55

Maybe it's aiming at: Are you both biologically female and happy to be called 'she'?

God knows.

nauticant · 27/09/2017 08:56

The 2 statements contradict each other

One is a belief, the other is a choice to fill in an annoying form. They're not mirror images of each other.

Flomper · 27/09/2017 09:20

Id put FF too because I have XX chromosomes, have given birth, have psriods and operate in society as a woman, even though im not particularly feminine, dont wear dresses, but do shave my legs, work in a trad male job and believe that gender is largely socially constructed.

a minor point on the manifesto, why do they need free prescriptions for all the potentially dangerous drugs they want to take at toxic doses if they want when they are to be available over-the-counter anyway?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/09/2017 16:12

Because the question is ridiculous I'm afraid I'd mess them around and just tick the sex:f box.

I'm getting pretty pissed off about the whole gender thing, and it has no real relevance to anything.

Surely those who do believe in gender would need 157 choices, not just 2?

Datun · 27/09/2017 18:54

It's going to get to the point where unless you tick F as your gender, you have to be trans.

My gender isn't F, because I don't subscribe to the hierarchical concept of it.

If you think it means you're feminine, what's the damn point? Who cares?

ponderingprobably · 27/09/2017 19:14

Well, I consider being a feminist is compatible with 'femininity', as is behaving in a way that challenges gender stereotypes. Gender is socially constructed and a large amount of people in society are happy with not having to conform to sexual stereotypes. I would put gender as 'F' because I am happy having having the feminine pronouns used about me and being referred to as a 'woman'. I identify myself as my biological sex, if someone has a reason to know. A lot of my experiences are ones which are restricted to the female sex.

Why should transactivists be the ones to define 'feminity' and not feminists? Let feminists reclaim feminity and the social constructs of gender as something which transcends and challenges sexual stereotypes.

Then feminists can produce an inclusive, informative gender resource for schools which is compatible with science and sexual equality.

Datun · 27/09/2017 21:13

It's not that femininity is compatible or incompatible with being a feminist or being a female.

It's just a collection of stereotypes. But the crux of the matter is what are those stereotypes?

We often talk about them on here. But in actuality, they are very loose and ill defined.

So to reclaim femininity as something that could be progressive, what do you define as feminity?

ponderingprobably · 27/09/2017 21:26

What do I define as feminity? Anything that that someone of the female sex says, does and thinks. Masculinity, anything that someone of the male sex says, does and thinks. And in a vent diagram the circles would either be on top of each other or there would be a huge crossover area.

ponderingprobably · 27/09/2017 21:27

Sorry Venn diagram. Autocorrect fail. (Although vent diagram might be quite apt!)

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/09/2017 21:29

Datun

It's going to get to the point where unless you tick F as your gender, you have to be trans

My gender isn't F, because I don't subscribe to the hierarchical concept of it

If you think it means you're feminine, what's the damn point? Who cares?

Thank you Datun - that is the point I was trying to make and clearly failing to.

ponderingprobably · 27/09/2017 21:30

Of course anything that relates to specific experiences, concerning biology, of either sex, such as giving birth would be outside the cross over.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/09/2017 21:33

What do I define as feminity? Anything that that someone of the female sex says, does and thinks. Masculinity, anything that someone of the male sex says, does and thinks

I'm not sure that is a terribly useful definition.