TRANS HEALTH MANIFESTO

[ALittleBitOfButter]

I'm choking on my porridge. This Trans Health manifesto is...just...gosh.

I've only skim read it but they don't seem to have included Female Genital Mutilation on their list of bad things done to bodies. Interesting!

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/09/20/trans-health-manifesto/#more-10439

We demand resources for hair removal anywhere on our bodies, and the option of local anesthetic during these procedures.

Wimps

How so Lass?

If gender is a social construct, we, as part of society construct it. Gender concerns beliefs and expectations, in terms of behaviour, appearance and achievements, of men and women. Feminism can define those expectations and validly as any other part of society. My definition simply rejects those stereotypes and redefines stereotypical expectations.

Correction, that should say 'male and female'.

TBH, traditional stereotypes are pretty old fashioned and non representative of women today. Up to date gender expectations surely would represent modern femininity and masculinity, at the very least. More hopefully, gender expectations would be progressive and look to what we want masculinity and femininity to mean for the future.

I would leave the gender box blank because it's none of their bloody business whether I shave my legs or exclusively wear trousers. I don't see how it's acceptable for that information to be collected in a professional environment.

Is shaving legs only feminine? Do masculine men never wear skirts?

Gender is simply the social and personal expectations and beliefs concerning male and females. People who have and want non restrictive or reductive expectations of male and females are a large part of society. Why is this sector of society's expectations and beliefs not represented in how we view gender

People who have and want non restrictive or reductive expectations of male and females are a large part of society*

These are women.

Why is this sector of society's expectations and beliefs not represented in how we view gender

Because it's men who decide. Hence oppression. And gender as a hierarchy.

There's no point in oppressing anyone or any class of anyone unless there is some kind of material gain.

What do I define as feminity? Anything that that someone of the female sex says, does and thinks. Masculinity, anything that someone of the male sex says, does and thinks

My definition simply rejects those stereotypes and redefines stereotypical expectations

Your definition renders "feminine" and "masculine" completely redundant. People do things, say things and think things. What point is there in distinguishing whether these things are feminine if done by a woman or masculine if done by a man?

The stereotype is pink for girls blue for boys.

The feminist position is these are just colours. That is getting rid of the stereotype.

Your position seems to be pink is feminine if a woman wears it and masculine if a man wears it. And I'm struggling to see what point you are making.

ponderingprobably: Is shaving legs only feminine? Do masculine men never wear skirts?

Well exactly. It's all so subjective. I think hairy legs should be part of notions of feminine desirability, because women's bodies in their natural state should be normalised. Whether capitalist society agrees is another matter.

Lass,
Your position seems to be pink is feminine if a woman wears it and masculine if a man wears it. And I'm struggling to see what point you are making.

My point is, gender, whether we like it or not, does exist as a social construct. Because ideas and ideologies exist. What I am suggesting, is that acknowledging this, empowers people to ensure the prevailing ideas and ideologies, within society, are ones we find acceptable. Instead of demoting the importance of social constructs we should ensure we are part of the construction of them.

Because it's men who decide. Hence oppression. And gender as a hierarchy.

There's no point in oppressing anyone or any class of anyone unless there is some kind of material gain.

However we don't have to lie down and let oppression defeat us. If men have used gender to oppress, women can use it to liberate.

Your definition renders "feminine" and "masculine" completely redundant. People do things, say things and think things. What point is there in distinguishing whether these things are feminine if done by a woman or masculine if done by a man?

Lass, the point is we need to address what is masculine and feminine in order to challenge sexual stereotypes within perceptions of gender. People do have gender perceptions, in order to challenge stereotypical ones, we need to accept people's perceptions exist, in order to promote the discussion of how close to reality they are.

Because, if we don't, you get the transactivist ideologies which claim not conforming to the sexual stereotypes, relating to the gender perceptions connected to biological sex, renders someone trans or non binary.

Wow! That reads like Vercua Salt's letter to Santa.

No pony? Fucking noobs.

Because, if we don't, you get the transactivist ideologies which claim not conforming to the sexual stereotypes, relating to the gender perceptions connected to biological sex, renders someone trans or non binary

I get that what I don't get is why you want to keep the concept of masculinity and femininity at all.

I get that what I don't get is why you want to keep the concept of masculinity and femininity at all.

Because we need the terms in order to have a discussion about gender. We need to be able to discuss gender perceptions in order to promote the rejection of perceptions that are non inclusive, restrictive, reductive, not compatible with feminism, not compatible with science and not compatible with equality.

And we need the terms (masculine/feminine) and an understanding of the concepts related to them, in order to discuss historical and cross societal gender perceptions.

We need to be able to discuss gender perceptions in order to promote the rejection of perceptions that are non inclusive, restrictive, reductive, not compatible with feminism, not compatible with science and not compatible with equality.

I sort of see what you mean.

Provide a list of stereotypes?

So as soon as people looked at what we are actually talking about, instead of some kind of woolly definition, they will see how stupid/detrimental they are?

Because we need the terms in order to have a discussion about gender

The impression I take from reading on FWR is that the only relevant discussion about gender is that it is an artificial social construct we should be rid of.

However we don't have to lie down and let oppression defeat us. If men have used gender to oppress, women can use it to liberate

Again I was under the impression the generally radical feminist view on here was that liberation from gender oppression means getting rid of artificial gendered differences.

Well they certainly don't want much, do they?!!!! Wtf! That last demand is sickening

Yes, that sort of thing Datun. At the moment people seem hard pushed to define the difference between sex and gender. There is even idea, amongst some, that saying sex instead of gender is somehow more 'impolite' than saying sex. In order to illustrate gender perceptions it is useful to talk about what is considered masculine and feminine amongst the discussion group and in wider society. Without these terms discussion gets more difficult.

Lass,

The impression I take from reading on FWR is that the only relevant discussion about gender is that it is an artificial social construct we should be rid of.

For this to take place there needs to be discussion. That discussion needs to be able to understand terms and concepts before they can be rendered redundant.

Again I was under the impression the generally radical feminist view on here was that liberation from gender oppression means getting rid of artificial gendered differences

And, again, my posts concern the means by which this can be done. Discussion. Education. Both of which need the relevant language. How can a good inclusive gender resource for schools be produced if the language and concepts surrounding gender perceptions are not explored?

...needs to be done in order to seek to understand. Typo omission.

How can a good inclusive gender resource for schools be produced if the language and concepts surrounding gender perceptions are not explored?

But you still clinging to gender - what is an "inclusive gender resource" ? Activities , ideas, opportunities should be sex inclusive.

To say that playing football is a feminine activity or that it becomes a feminine activity if women do it or that it is a masculine activity if men do it seems nonsense to me.

It is currently perceived as a masculine activity. The aim should be it is merely an activity which people who like playing do.