Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

[BeyondNoone]

Here's the link to thread one
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3033126-London-meeting-to-discuss-Gender-Identity-attacked-by-transactivists

I'm just going to sleep, if someone else can add the news links for me please? Thanks :)

Following my post on fb... my one shocked face also has a like to go with it. So that's two people who likely had no clue who have had some introduction. One works in the NHS and the other in the CJS. So thats something. Going to raise in person with some friends too. Went down well with one thus far. I don't think anyone's scared of commenting. It's more it's an invisible problem. So people don't care. This hasn't directly affected me or anyone I know.... yet.

Now I find playing devils advocate can be quite tiresome.. but... the only place I get lost in this debate (well the one that's bugging me at the most) is regarding intersex conditions. If asked what makes a woman a woman I would say xx chromosome & the accompanying sexual characteristics & ability to produce ova, bear children (all being well). If someone were to then ask me how do people with intersex conditions fit with this view i'd flounder a bit... can anyone help?

Wow they are massive gaslighters.

Can somone tell me what doxxed means please.

This article explains doxxing with examples: heimdalsecurity.com/blog/doxxing/

Your personal details revealed - real name/address/workplace/phone no etc.

Although I did see a post on Twitter earlier on about a trans complaining about being doxxed by TERFS, all because someone had posted a link to his website.

Good God!

Ha yeah Betsy. The example had linked his twitter and porn sites, but anyone else doing so is "dozing". Like, it's totally the same as finding out our employers and pressuring them to sack us.

Oh ffs, it said doxxing, why did it then change?

I had a funny encounter today (with a female academic colleague). I talked about the incident at Speaker's Corner last week, rapists going to female prisons, and men competing in women's sports. Then my female conversation partner stopped me and said--'I notice you used the term "man" ...' with side eye.

This was the picture I had in mind:

I'm sorry but some of the sports examples aren't even autogynephiles or deluded SJW tumblrinas. They are just guys who want to win at sports.(Which is fine, I'm a competitive guy too, but competition requires a level playing field!)

So a very successful and highly intelligent mature woman believes that it's dubious to refer to a manpursuing a very conventional masculine activity, competing in sportsas a man.

If someone were to then ask me how do people with intersex conditions fit with this view i'd flounder a bit... can anyone help?

One argument (I've heard from others) is that humans as a species are bipedal. Although the vast majority of people are bipedal, some can be born with one or no legs. Does this mean that humans as a species are not actually bipedal? No, having one or no legs is a birth defect.

The other point is that the intersex community have asked continually for their condition(s) not to be co-opted as "proving" anything to do with trans. They object to being used in a way that misrepresents their condition(s). They find it dehumanising. The trans community seem happy to ignore these reasonable requests.

user

Intersex is a tricky one and I apologise in advance if I get the language wrong anywhere! As I understand it humans have two sexes, male and female. Occasionally something essentially goes wrong and the reproductive system doesn't develop as it should; there's lots of different variants of this and of differing degrees of severity. It is, for want of a better word, a defect that has occurred during foetal development. It is not a third sex and doesn't change the basic human condition of two sexes any more than some people having one leg doesn't mean that humans are bipedal.

Trans is NOT one of these variants. Trans people are not intersex, their reproductive systems have developed normally and match their chromosomes.* However the trans narrative often co-opts intersex as it muddies the waters and makes it easier to say that not everyone is male or female. They will also exaggerate the number (claiming conditions like PCOS as intersex to increase the numbers.) I've also frequently seen infertility used to try and discredit the general concept that females are the sex who bear young and produce ova, men produce sperm.

*disclaimer, you do probably get a very small number of people who are both trans and intersex

xposted with nauticant I swear!

You snoozed looser!

you do probably get a very small number of people who are both trans and intersex

Go through all of the leading TRAs, choose a couple of dozen if you wish, and I'd bet good money not one single one of them is intersex.

The Twitter thread I saw was a list of tweets from TERFs supposedly proving how horrible they all are, and included these two examples of doxxing.

The TAs really know how to stretch truth

Oh I know, it will be an absolutely TINY number who are both intersex and trans, and they won't be the loud shouty TAs I'd bet.

That's so not doxxing, twits.

More pertinently, the political goals of trans and intersex groups are inverted. Intersex groups have consistently campaigned to free intersex children from imposed surgeries and drugs to conform their bodies to norms and to debunk the idea (often told to parents to get them to consent to these procedures) that intersex people will kill themselves if they don't get surgery to "look normal". Their position is that their bodies are fine as they are (barring actual medical issues).

It's opposite land. You can see why campaigning intersex groups are [[http://www.aissg.org/21_OVERVIEW.HTM#Terminology dismayed]] by the conflation.

The other point is that the intersex community have asked continually for their condition(s) not to be co-opted as "proving" anything to do with trans.

I'd wager that a few specific intersex people have said this, and they are not the spokespeople for all of them.

But that aside, if you take the position that man=XY and woman=XX, then this logically leads to intersex people being neither men nor woman. That is simply a matter of logic and is independent of anyone's offence or dislike. But if you are happy with that logical conclusion then fair enough.

Technically the position is...
Just x's (be that xo, xx, xxx whatever) = female
Any amount of y's (xy, xxy, xyy, whatever = male

Science wise.

There was a charity called the Andrgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group but it seems to have closed down.

Their website was at great pains to dissociate itself from Mermaids to the extent that it pulled out of cooperating with a BBC documentary.

The page detailed the dismay caused by Mermaids muddying the water and trying to get transgenders recognised as something like intersex.

Often very badly. Apparently being a lesbian with a female penis means the sight of another penis, whether male or female, is triggering.

I think it was Riley Dennis who commented in one of their youtube videos that if you're a lesbian who has suffered rape/sexual abuse then it is allowable in the short term to opt out, but you are expected to work on yourself to get over it.

Your sexual preferences and choices and responses after all are only societal, and something you just need to overcome.

Will you tell straight men or shall I?

Here are the infamous Riley Dennis videos. Welcome to the land of batshit crazy.

and

I have a friend who is nearly 50, has massive bleeds caused by fibroids which have led to her being hospitalised three times over the last six months. Can she get a hysterectomy? Can she fuck :(

Datun The way this issue has been analysed does not indicate, in any way, that women tar all trans people with the same brush.
...
The reason for the word peak is because it's a journey. From passionately, but blindly wishing to be inclusive, to the understanding that it enforces gender roles and is therefore regressive, not progressive

Are you sure you are not tarring all trans people with the same brush. How does trans, as a thing in itself, enforce gender roles? As opposed to specific trans people who might be by adopting societal conventions. But if you have a problem with those conventions then the biggest perpetuators of them will be the "cis" folk who follow them.

You can of course, as plenty seem to, decide that trans people, ALL of them, are only trans because they have realised that they like blue/pink and dresses/football and etc etc, then concluded that they are not a man but a woman, or vice versa, and there may well be some trans for whom this assumption would correctly capture their experience. But it would be brush-tarring to assume this of them all.

Today 19:17 CeeBeeBee

How do TRA respond to suggestions of sleeping with other trans women? After all, if they identify as lesbian then they shouldn't refuse another transwomen for being trans right?

I shared last week's article on Facebook but I did not have a single response. sad I think some people are still scared to say anything.

It's making me laugh so I don't cry but like I just can't believe the audacity of it, and it just all seems so male.
I can't think of a single woman who would be like 'you have to like my genital'. In fact most women I know have huge hang ups about their genitals.
It took me years to feel comfortable showing my lady bits to a partner because I've been socially conditioned that fannies are smelly and no one likes them.
Whereas most men think there penises are something to behold and a thing of beauty.

Sorry, I pressed post too soon.

If you go onto Internet dating websites for trans-people, in their profile they will largely say 'no trans'.

The very men who say they are lesbians and lesbians should sleep with them, because gender is the attraction, not sex, will, at the same time, reject other transwomen on the basis of their sex, not their gender.

I mean, it's not as if anyone doesn't get this, right?

Men who say they are lesbians and therefore lesbians should sleep with them, produces a wtf from almost everyone. No one buys it.