Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

[BeyondNoone]

Here's the link to thread one
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3033126-London-meeting-to-discuss-Gender-Identity-attacked-by-transactivists

I'm just going to sleep, if someone else can add the news links for me please? Thanks :)

JAPAB

The answer to your question is to realise what gender means.

Technically the position is...
Just x's (be that xo, xx, xxx whatever) = female
Any amount of y's (xy, xxy, xyy, whatever = male

If you take the position that man = has Y and woman = no Y, and you will ignore the specific intersex people who might identify differently, then fair enough. No inconsistency there.

How does trans, as a thing in itself, enforce gender roles?

As it's being used at the moment (where trans=transgender) then the concept that you can transition inherently assumes that there is a difference between the two (else why transition) and that to be able to "live as the other gender" you have to explicitly transition - which suggests you cannot live as you would like whilst being the other gender. That is enforcing the gender roles, otherwise you would do whatever it was you wanted to go without needing to change your gender.

There are of course people with gender (arguably sex) dysphoria who believe their body is somehow wrong, but that belief does not make it objectively true. I think we're doing these people a huge injustice by pushing physical transition (i.e. hormones and surgery) as a cure when there's a lack of evidence as to its effectiveness.

Having a head-desk moment (this is from an article on how people know they're trans):

"What is it about living as a male that excites you? Do you want more muscularity and physical strength? Then lift weights! Get your food right  —  go beast-mode on protein. You like short hair? Go to a cool barber, get that part and fade you’ve been wanting. Are you tired of being spoken over because you’re perceived as feminine? I know I am. It’s troubling how the more I appear female the more my opinion is deemed of less value in serious conversation while suddenly it’s like I’ve dropped my invisibility cloak at the bar. To all voices who have been disregarded, speak up!"

So what she's basically saying is "I'm seeking refugee status from being oppressed because of my biological sex. But I've decided it's not the oppression that's wrong, it's my biological sex." Argh!

The UK intersex society has consistently, publicly and vociferously asked to not be included in the trans debate.

GIRES repeatedly asked them to collaborate and they denied the opportunity. Saying that the reason why trans people have surgery has nothing to do with why intersex people do.

GIRES badgered the society into doing a documentary. In the end the society wrote a public letter online explaining why they didn't want to and to ask publicly that GIRES stop pestering them.

Intersex is not trans. That's obvious. What's unforgivable is that the trans community constantly try to co-opt a medical anomaly to justify the nonsense that people can change sex.

But if you have a problem with those conventions then the biggest perpetuators of them will be the "cis" folk who follow them.

Well I don't know a single 'Cis' person who falls neatly into either the male or female stereotype, in fact I know lots and lots of 'cis' who pretty much have thrown the rule book away, but even when I think of people who are very traditional they don't fit exactly. The answer is not to say that these people are non binary but that there is nothing real that they are going between, gender is a social construct that literally no one falls into perfectly. If we removed the idea that males acted like this and females acted like that then there would be nothing to have to trans from (unless you were body dysmorphic) and people would be free to be exactly who they wanted to be without it having anything to do with what was between their legs.
I would imagine most women on this forum also stands against gender stereotyping when it comes from 'cis' people too (I'm looking at you mil).

No one is denying that the reason why people want to transition is because they see the sex role stereotypes of the other sex as being preferable.

And yes, it would be wonderful if we could abolish those sex role stereotypes because transgenderism would disappear.

But, they are just that. Sex role
stereotypes.

So, go ahead, transition, knock yourself out. But don't ever pretend that it is innate and therefore makes you, biologically the opposite sex.

It's not. It's made up!

And you know what? I would mind a less, far less, if the sex role stereotypes involved raising children, doing the housework, and taking care of elderly parents.

But they don't. They involve clothes, toilets, and talking about feminism and how women do it all wrong.

I've just been reading this new blog on the NHS Consultation on specialised gender identity services (and the link to the situation in US universities) - It's shocking to think of the medical profession prioritising ideology over expert opinion and the welfare of vulnerable patients - and it is vulnerable people who will suffer the most from this. We need open debate and reasoned arguments more than ever now.

www.transgendertrend.com/nhs-public-consultation/

Datun

Japan asked 'How does trans, as a thing in itself, enforce gender roles?'

So I think people were answering that.

I don't think gender stereotypes are going anywhere soon and if you really need to transition to be happy, knock yourself out. I will even go on a march and stand beside you to defend your right to do so, I couldn't care less what grown up people do with their bodies as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's rights. But when it starts to infringe on other people's rights I will stand up and stand my corner.

Datun

Ha can you imagine?

'Oh hi Derick you look a bit different'

'Yes I'm Deidre now'

'But your dresses exactly the same?'

'Yes I'm a woman so I'm wearing jeans and a T shirt.'

' whats the difference then ?'

'Well I get paid less to do the same job, I am sorting out a cake for someone in the office because they are leaving, I am off to buy some birthday cards for my partners niece, no one thinks I'm funny anymore and I have to apologise more in emails'

Japan asked 'How does trans, as a thing in itself, enforce gender roles?'

Because it says if you want those gender roles you must be that sex.

You can't be a man who likes floral material, crying at films and cuddles kittens. That must make you a woman.

You can't be a woman who is competitive, ambitious, opinionated and a leader. That must make you a man.

What are stereotypical sex roles? Nurturing, leadership, powerful, compliant, decorative, ambitious.

Tell me the typical roles for women, and I will give you 100 women who do not embody them. Because
they don't make you female.

This ideology relies on stereotypes. Would a man transition to be a woman, if women meant competitive, strong, butch?

These women (link below) had to create, invent a male partner in order to be taken seriously. The business was run by them, their ideas, their input. But no one took them seriously until they invented a man to say it.

Because everyone buys into ^invented% sex role stereotypes.

If a woman says it is not important but if a man says it, exactly the same thing, it's listened to.

It's not innate! It's expectation based on stereotypes.

www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/08/to-offset-sexism-in-tech-these-female-cofounders-invented-a-fake-male-partner-keith-mann/

Sentimental That's bloody brilliant.

Because it says if you want those gender roles you must be that sex.

You can't be a man who likes floral material, crying at films and cuddles kittens. That must make you a woman.

You can't be a woman who is competitive, ambitious, opinionated and a leader. That must make you a man.

Some trans people may say this. But is it intrinsic to trans.

Those with body dysmorphia might think this sort of thing is not "core". They are part of transgender after all.

Even for the rest, there is still some assumption and maybe some brush-tarring here.

Here is a possibility. Someone has an inner sense of being a man or a woman. This is not as a result of weighing up which stereotypes they prefer, or because someone told them they must be this that or the other due to their preferences for things stereotypically associated with one sex. It is just there within them.

They might then adopt some of the conventions of men or women in the society they live in. Just like many many "cis" folk do. But not always, see Danielle M. As I say, if you object to the stereotype that women wear dresses then by far the biggest perpetrators of it are "cis" women.

You can assume that trans are only trans due to a preference towards certain stereotypes, but that is an assumption. You can then conclude that transgenderism, at it's very core, therefore "enforces" gender roles, but it is not exactly a done deal that this is true. Yet it is assumed and all trans people get tarred with it.

"It's just there within them". That's what religious people say about souls. I don't believe that either.

I'm fine with people doing whatever floats their boat and believing whatever helps them make sense of a chaotic world. Just don't try to police my belief system, and don't expect to wave your penis around in the changing room when I'm butt naked and trying to squeeze into my swimming costume.

Here is a possibility. Someone has an inner sense of being a man or a woman.

Okay. Explain that. How would you, with all your imagination, and every single word in English dictionary at your disposal, describe that.

Ok then JAPAB without referring to a gender stereotype or biological difference, what's a man and what's a woman?

That's the thing, how can you have an inner sense of being a sex? No woman I've met can describe what a woman feels like - why can a man? Why if someone feels deeply troubled - dysphoric or dysmorphic- do we say that the cure is to surgically alter their body when it's not for any other dysmorphic condition.

Finally, those with dysmorphia are now thought to be a relative small proportion of the trans umbrella and I suspect even smaller proportion of the TA population who seem to delight in threats of violence and rape.

Sorry, I meant GIRES not Mermaids.

Just in case I offended anybody.....

Okay. Explain that. How would you, with all your imagination, and every single word in English dictionary at your disposal, describe that.

Blimey, try describing what feeling happy feels like without referencing synonyms.

If a mad scientist body-swapped you your sense of being a woman might persist. Or if you want to consider something more realistic, then consider cases such as the one recently discussed on FWR about biological males whose external organs are missing or get removed, who are then raised as girls but something within them made therm think this wasn't right, and they later identify as men before they even find out about the biology.

Whatever this feels like and whether someone can explain the content ofit, that does not affect my point.

You are assuming that trans inherently equals the enforcing of stereotypes and telling people that if they like pink they are girls etc. That this is its core concept. And hence it is "regressive". This assertion is based on premises that are not a done deal.

My "sense of being a woman" persists only because I know that I am female. I actually don't believe that I feel like a woman, whatever that means. I just k ow what sex I am. Society tells us women must do this that and the other and I reject a lot of these. Does not erode the fact that I am one.

Well when I'm happy my heart rate slows down, I usually turn the corners of my mouth up into a smile. I become less vigilant of danger in my surrounding and tend to laugh more.
If you were to take a look at my brain you'd probably be able to see that I was not anxious by the parts of my brain that was active and that If you were to do a blood test you'd see that my cortisol levels were low.

Whatever this feels like and whether someone can explain the content ofit, that does not affect my point.

It's entirely your point. First of all, no one can explain it. The people who feel it, or the most erudite person in the world, using their imagination. No one, not one person has ever been able to articulate it.

Funnily enough, a few years ago, they did articulate it. They said they felt flowery, vibrant and soft and empathetic. Until feminists said what the fuck are you talking about? I can show you a million women who don't feel that. And a million men who do.

And then they stopped describing it, because it's simply
not possible without reverting to stereotypes. Man made roles.

A man cannot feel what it's like to have a woman's body. To menstruate, gestate. Or not, given the biology that says he should. He can't know what it feels like to worry about being pregnant, or not being pregnant. He cannot feel what it's like to be treated as a woman, who has that body. Cannot feel what it's like to navigate life with that body. He cannot feel what it's like to have that body violated.

The material reality of inhabiting a body with the anatomical and biological features of a woman is not a feeling. It just is.

A man can feel feminine, effeminate, like all the things stereotypically associated with being female, it doesn't make jot of difference.

Male and female, men and women are categorised by biological sex. Because biological sex is what it actually means.

Hormones also affect sex not just genitalia and not having descended testicles would not mean that the hormones would be female.

This is very unlikely to be the case for most transsexuals though, otherwise they wouldn't need hormone therapy. That's another example of intersex.