I almost want to stand up and applaud this quite outstanding level of whataboutery for the poor menz...

[ShotsFired]

Original article link (depressing, not surprising etc): www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/aug/30/keith-mann-the-inside-man-who-has-exposed-tech-industry-sexism

Comment:
I believe in equal opportunities , not equal outcomes . That said , I smile at the amount of time examining sexism in tech / science / engineering when there is a dearth of consideration given to the catastrophic loss of male teachers , desperately needed to reach out to disillusioned boys . Male teachers are an endangered species in primary schools and it's getting that way in secondary also . This is spreading to other 'caring' professions too as I noticed when visiting prospective universities with my daughter . 90% plus of psychology graduates are now women ..... at s time when men's mental health is in crisis . But hey , who cares?

I expect he's is too busy to write more bunkum because he spends his life campaigning and working to improve the ratios of men in teaching and other caring professions, given how strongly he feels about it. Right? Rght...? Hello?

john

Seriously. Porn is all about misogyny. Women rarely do porn for their own past time.

If women participate in porn, they do it because that is where their value lies. Being fuckable and decorative. That's their role.

Anatidae

Interesting you should talk about Sweden. I was in Stockholm, with DH.

I always notice what the hotel receptionist does upon arrival. Male receptionist.

I had made the booking and I approached the receptionist and started talking. What struck me was how he made eye contact with me, continuously, without deferring to DH. And he only looked at DH if he asked specific question, then he reverted back to me.

It was noticeable because it was unusual. Believe me, I always check.

This carried on to restaurants and shops.

Very different to almost any other country I've been to.

Yes yes yes datun !

Women and men relate to each other in a different way. It's so noticeable isn't it? Your example is perfect, but it extends throughout.

Here I see young quote glamorous women driving the massive trucks on the building site near us.
I see young men as daycare teachers
The mechanics at the garage don't refuse to meet my eye or defer to dh,

I'm just treated as a human person and it's so different.

There are kids in my sons daycare class that I have no idea if they are girls or boys (mainly because the names of Somali/Swedish/Turkish kids don't immediately say girl or boy to me.) it's refreshing. To be treated as a person, not an inferior creature or based on how I look.

I feel much, much safer here as a woman than in the uk.

john I think maybe as you grew up male you're just not seeing it. You weren't steeped in the pink growing up. you were never told 'that's not for you.'

The only analogy I can think of is if you'd desperately wanted to be say, a children's nurse or a primary school teacher. You say yourself that you feel there are barriers to entry to those professions? Well that's what it's like for women for about 80% of all professional roles

I'm pleased John showed up with his refreshing, original and well, thought out talking points.

If we were going to shift the traditional family paradigm, it would take a radical restructuring of the economy and labour market.

Agreed! Let's do it! Welcome to radical feminism John!

Why do you call men, menz? Using patronising language makes a lot of people (women) not take you seriously. You do the cause a disservice.

mrsmuddlepies

It's lighthearted.

Like gender feelz, bantz, wims, etc.

Is this thread light hearted then? Or are you really serious about the cause or just playing around?

The thread is generally serious, yes.

Have you read it? It's thrown up some interesting points.

Then use appropriate language, otherwise you trivialise important issues.

Then use appropriate language, otherwise you trivialise important issues.

Are you just here to police the language of the thread and praise John?

I've been following this thread and all the interesting points raised. I think Datun, Spaghetti and Sophocles have been very patient and informative in the face of (a sometimes tiresome) point of view which is heavily blinkered by the experience of the world as a male rather than a female and all the effects of how differently both sexes are treated and the impact this has on them in later life leading to a dearth of males in nursing , teaching, oh, and cleaning and of women in STEM roles and other prominent careers. Having watched the programme mentioned and having a friend in the field of recruiting women to the STEM industries I have found it interesting. I am less interested by your schoolmarmish rap across the knuckles because you disapprove of the language used. Language which incidentally appears to have originated in direct response to men constantly telling women how to be feminists and turning feminist subjects around to centre men. Lighthearted? Yes, but also a little sarcastic and not all that misplaced in a thread which started on the subject of 'whataboutery' as in forget the women 'what about the men?' a question which just isn't asked often enough ...

Oh yes you are right. Inappropriate use of trivial language is why people don't get on board with feminism.

I agree about use of appropriate language. I have seen a couple of feminist topics on the main stream boards here and by and large they are dismissed because the terminology is off putting and alienates ordinary folk. If you are truly serious about an issue it is worthy of proper debate without using abusive 'lighthearted ' language. You will not be taken seriously by most people when you use terms such as menz. Just as you would not take a poster seriously who was talking about a serious issue and referred to 'the ladies' or worse. It is patronising and self defeating.

Also, feminists have no sense of humour but when we try to lighten things up, we are then accused of not taking things seriously.

We can't win. Anyone who quibbles with the language has no real interest in being on our side anyway. They just want feminists to STFU.

Oh, right 'our side', so it's just your own cosy club that does not allow ordinary women. Honestly, do you really want open debate or is it just for the select few who get that it's ok to banter and mock as long as its members of 'the club' who are doing it. I despair........

mrsmuddlepies

Feminism is about promoting the rights of women and freeing them from the disadvantages they encounter under a chauvinist society.

One of those liberations is freedom to not have to take the opinions of dominant males into account. However temporary.

Feminists are forever being accused of not sugarcoating enough. Lest they lose 'recruits'.

There is a vertical wealth of comments, opinions, articles and chat on these boards. Incredibly informative, often funny.

If anyone is unable, or unwilling, to take on board the comprehensive nature of these threads, because they are not being kind enough, or inclusive enough, or tentative enough, then it really isn't the job of feminists (of all people) to change the discourse to suit them.

People should already be on board because of the goal. If they understand feminism at all, any snarky comments make perfect sense.

Once the filters are off and feminism hits you in the face, because it's need is irrefutable, a bit of snark here and there is a very mild reaction.

And, for the record, most of the women on here are married, with children, have excellent relationships with the males in their lives and certainly do not hate men.

Stop resisting!

Participate!!

I phrased that badly. I'm sorry. I don't mean that feminism is an exclusive club. It is just that I have read far too many posts where people who want feminists to STFU will police the language they use. Either it's too jargon heavy or it's too casual or too serious or not serious enough or it puts women off. Basically, ime anything a feminist does or says is too often automatically considered wrong or puts women off. And that makes me feel like snapping.

ISaySteadyOn

I don't blame you! If feminism has taught me one thing, it's admirable (and very impressive) self restraint.

I can see how people might dip into these boards and think wtf? That's a bit harsh.

Without realising that the narratives against feminism are predictable and tedious, but also completely refutable.

The same objections come up time after time. If they were just an open and candid questioning, that would be fine, but they are inevitably underpinned by sexism and a strong desire to put women down.

I'm not at all suggesting that's you mrsmuddlepies. But these boards quite regularly attract awful misogynists. who will pretend to want a rational discourse, but then all too often reveal themselves as being anything but pro women.

It is unrelenting and it certainly, categorically, informs one's view.

and they do rather tend to derail these threads and make it so that everyone else's comments are not engaged with. It drives me mad when a man comes on and the next thing we all have to carefully explain it to him. Even while I see why it's being done and am doing it myself.

I haven't asked anyone to explain anything to me?? I have been respectful and polite. If you disagree with what I'm saying then that's fine. This is an open discussion forum

Furthermore, my points have not been anti feminist. I have only taken issue with certain areas of contemporary feminist discourse. If even this is somehow in breach of tacit rules then I think there's a problem.

I've got a strong sense of deja vu here.

Really strong.

If you mean have I commented previously, then yes I was Usersomethingorother and have just changed my chat name.