I almost want to stand up and applaud this quite outstanding level of whataboutery for the poor menz...

[ShotsFired]

Original article link (depressing, not surprising etc): www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/aug/30/keith-mann-the-inside-man-who-has-exposed-tech-industry-sexism

Comment:
I believe in equal opportunities , not equal outcomes . That said , I smile at the amount of time examining sexism in tech / science / engineering when there is a dearth of consideration given to the catastrophic loss of male teachers , desperately needed to reach out to disillusioned boys . Male teachers are an endangered species in primary schools and it's getting that way in secondary also . This is spreading to other 'caring' professions too as I noticed when visiting prospective universities with my daughter . 90% plus of psychology graduates are now women ..... at s time when men's mental health is in crisis . But hey , who cares?

I expect he's is too busy to write more bunkum because he spends his life campaigning and working to improve the ratios of men in teaching and other caring professions, given how strongly he feels about it. Right? Rght...? Hello?

Anatidae, I think I didn't explain myself properly. The point I was trying to Make is not that the firm is trying to resist promoting people they believe (wrongly) are less capable, but rather, they want to keep the good people who they are currently losing because those people feel understandably unhappy and undervalued because the firm is not recognising them, rewarding them or promoting them. Ie they accept they have great people who don't get promoted and who then tend to leave, usually for a partnership elsewhere. And the firm suffers because they are losing talent. So firms like this one that are attempting to implement unconscious bias training are doing it because they accept that highly competent women (and others) are being overlooked because they don't fit the "old boys" model. And so they hope to adjust the process. It's not easy and it's not a magic bullet, but it's a step in the right direction.

For a different client, I was once privy to a long memo about hiring externally for a particular v senior role. The senior department head was asking for budget to look externally. One of the criteria for approval has to be that there was no one internally who could fill the role. You won't be shocked to hear that as it turned out the two most senior people in the department who could conceivably fill the role were woman. The third was a man. The man was too junior but the manager included a few lines about how talented he was and that he believed the new senior hire's role
Would be to really mentor this guy. As for the women? Well, he used phrases like, "she's not quite ready to step up to this level of responsibility" and "she needs additional client experience". My absolute favourite line was a comment that one had just come back from maternity leave and as such wasn't ready (I checked, she had been back for more than 6 months).

I was horrified. Nothing I could do as I was reading the memo months later and it was only on my desk as an FYI to give me information about the department. When I spoke to a senior women who had seen it also and asked her opinion she made it clear that while she was suspicious, it wasn't blatant enough.. sigh.

anat and working
It's awful this still happens in 2017. Did you read the link I posted on the first page about the author?

I just read your link, quentin - should be astonishing, but isn't.

Sorry working - I was meaning 'you' in the generic sense - totally get what your company is doing. And completely agree with the bias. I've heard those exact same lines trotted out about very competent women while men with far less experience and less suited to the role sail ahead to the detriment of the teams working with them.

I've also seen it in hiring. One man and four women, I interviewed them all. Two of the women were excellent - I recommended one of them be hired with a preference for one and my reasons. The man got hired. He was less qualified, did worse at the interview. Bit of a used car salesman type. I was pretty stunned - he was a very poor candidate by any measure.

The women were rejected with no concrete reasons, but similar phrasing 'will they be able to deal with a difficult client? Less confident, not quite ready etc.)

So dispiriting.

Bloody hell, anatidae and working, those stories are shocking.

quinton I did read it. Shocking and yet not shocking. We see it time and time again. Even jk Rowling has to choose a male name when going incognito for cormoran strike.

I've seen loads of examples and studies. There's a pair of women who started an arts start up recently and who eventually created a fake male co-founder. Or the article I read that showed when firms are looking for venture capital partners, men are more likely to get it. The feedback on the women and the questions they are asked are different. And to rub salt into the wound, the article in question gives lots of helpful tips for women entrepreneurs to manage this.

It's relentless.

It is relentless and then if you try to discuss it it's you being a rabid feminist. The levels of denial involved in society are staggering

I don't know if this is the right place, but it seems like it might fit.

I've been interviewing recently for a new job (City type role, senior). For the last round of interviews, which was five back to back interviews with each of the management team I'll be going into, I was grilled by two women and three men. One of the men obviously fancied himself as a Wolf of Wall Street type and subjected me to the most aggressive interview I've ever had - challenging me, interrupting me, talking over me, really trying to catch me out. Now that is water off a duck's back to me, because I've spent my professional life dealing with arrogant self satisfied city types and he didn't get a rise out of me, but it was still pretty unsettling.

When I came out of that interview, I though, ah bugger, he hated me, he's going to torpedo me.

Well, he tried. But the MD was so impressed by how I'd handled him that instead of the job I was interviewing for, they've offered me a more senior role (far, far away from Mr WoWSt - to both our reliefs, I suspect).

I felt it was a bit of a feminist victory. And I'm going to be working for a fabulous inspiring woman Anyway, thought I would share.

Congratulations, Sophocles! That's brilliant!

Thank you Isay!

I ought to thank him too, really - he's given me a great leg up

I work in HR in a male dominated industry. There have been schemes to attract more women but the culture is overwhelmingly sexist. Even the equalities lead regards flexible working as something that women do. Depressing, and I am chipping away bit by bit.

As an aside, I took my 8 year old son to the GP. He had an op last year that resulted in a short hospital stay. Consultant etc all women. This time the GP was male. My son said to the GP "wow, I didnt know men could be doctors, that is amazing."

I am a single mother and my sons don't see many men at work. Primary school all women.

I hope you gave him the 'boys can be anything' line, just like we're used to doing for girls!

Wow sophocles well done!

Sophicles brilliant. Well done!!

Thank you quentin and working!

I am as chuffed as a chuffed thing. And also as hungover as a hungover thing - celebrations got a bit out of hand

Congratulations @sophocles :)

I think corporate culture has a huge role to play. A lot of what has been said about the desire to change things but not having a clue how to start really resonates with me.

One place I've worked which is very noticeable for being much more diverse than many companies is McKinsey:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/win-a-ticket-to-ride-from-business-best-finishing-school-kvpx9k9vm?shareToken=72a6dac674dd90f243cbf88b1d5e2bd1

The 'obligation to dissent' and analytical approach that is embedded into the organisational culture seems to translate into greater diversity from my experience.

That's interesting about McKinseys, Jigglytuff. I've had some dealings with them, and you're right, now that I think about it, they were a diverse group.

But I admit my jaw was on the floor at one of their senior execs. She quite routinely used to fly her children from NY to London so that they could spend time together on the plane, as otherwise she would rarely get to see them. She was pretty proud of the efficient use of time. I just thought it seemed quite depressing.

Oh I can quite believe that Sophocles!

They are very good at facilitating you spending as much time as humanly possible working

It's a good reason for a hangover! You need dd - she has spent last 20 minutes filling and drinking water cups. She could help
Keep you hydrated!

Nice one sophocles!

If you could please send your DD in my direction with water, fat coke, and a G&T at five o'clock, working, that'd be great

Thanks, anatidae!

I've recently become interested in economics & how they relate to equity/diversity. I can no longer access a university library, but do try to find some 'proper' articles on this. (not just TED talks, although they can be interesting introductions).

Anyway - all the current research shows that diversity brings greater economic success. Diversity provides the greatest range of resources & experience. Where there is an increase in diversity then on local and large-scale levels there's an increase in profits/productivity.

If you look at the history behind Hidden Figures then it is very clear that the American success in the space race was attributable to diversity. If the US hadn't drawn on the full range of resources - including the women of color shown in the movie (and the book is entirely different, and really worth reading) then it is questionable if they would have been as successful. Money helped, but pouring money into the project and only using white men was not as efficient as money & diverse resources.

If you look at the same issue through a capitalist lens, then diversity can help companies to be profitable, as it actually helps to keep the costs of labor down. It broadens the pool of possible candidates, which lowers candidates.

So any arguments against diversity are actually not about profitability, and companies should be asking themselves why they are willing to spend unnecessary $$$ on keeping their companies dominated by white males.

And Sophacles - SO happy for you!!! Not envying the hangover, though.

Anyway - all the current research shows that diversity brings greater economic success. Diversity provides the greatest range of resources & experience. Where there is an increase in diversity then on local and large-scale levels there's an increase in profits/productivity.

What do you mean by economic such success? Economic inequality has been steadily growing in most western economies over the past thirty years.