I almost want to stand up and applaud this quite outstanding level of whataboutery for the poor menz...

[ShotsFired]

Original article link (depressing, not surprising etc): www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/aug/30/keith-mann-the-inside-man-who-has-exposed-tech-industry-sexism

Comment:
I believe in equal opportunities , not equal outcomes . That said , I smile at the amount of time examining sexism in tech / science / engineering when there is a dearth of consideration given to the catastrophic loss of male teachers , desperately needed to reach out to disillusioned boys . Male teachers are an endangered species in primary schools and it's getting that way in secondary also . This is spreading to other 'caring' professions too as I noticed when visiting prospective universities with my daughter . 90% plus of psychology graduates are now women ..... at s time when men's mental health is in crisis . But hey , who cares?

I expect he's is too busy to write more bunkum because he spends his life campaigning and working to improve the ratios of men in teaching and other caring professions, given how strongly he feels about it. Right? Rght...? Hello?

It's like - I'm not sure what can be realistically changed through cultural politics.

Oh, OK. Slightly odd opinion - a bit defeatist, a bit like all those people who put together the drink drive or clunk click campaigns deciding not to bother.

I've lived places without those campaigns, and people find it as natural to chuck their kids unbelted in the back of the car (despite it being illegal) as I do to put them in and buckle them up.

john

Did you know that when coding first began it was a woman's job? It was considered that attention to detail was a woman's domain. It was undervalued and low-paid.

As men entered the industry, the value went up, as did the pay. It became male dominated and the sexism drove women out.

It remains male dominated. I will make a bet with you, that as more women enter it, the value will go down, as will the pay.

Well OK, that's a criminal/health and safety issue (that as you say is backed up by legislation)....but the very idea of gender? A very small number of people on sites like this cannot change that through some sort of awareness campaign. I mean it's not working is it.

Oh ok. I thought you hadn't watched the program, because it didn't affect you in the same way it did me.

Many things change culturally and make life easier for women.

Rape myths for instance. There is no law against a man saying 'she was wearing a short skirt so she was asking for it'. And there may never be.

But those myths are gradually being busted. All over the place. As soon as judges focus their closing arguments on the perpetrator, rather than the victim, these ripples spread outwards.

As I say, consider pornography. This is a titanic, global, multi billion dollar force interfacing with banks, hotels, credit card companies, IT companies, organized crime....just expecting this to whither away as a result of people on mumsnet saying it's sexist and men are bad for looking at it...that will not work. It just won't.

john

This is a campaign set up directly by mumsnetters.

It is often referenced in articles. I guarantee, that if you go to Toys "R" Us in 10 years time, the pink and blue will be all but gone.

lettoysbetoys.org.uk/about-2/

You're very invested in this thread, aren't you John. It seems really important to you that women need to stop trying to drive change. Why are you so threatened by it if you are so sure it's not going to work and we're all wasting our time?

gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact-“blind”-auditions-female-musicians

Going back to your views on unconscious bias John. What do you think was going on in the example given above then? (Other studies are available.....)

Gentlemanjohn

I agree that pornography is one of the most difficult nuts to crack.

However the government are now making legislation to ensure you need a credit card to access it.

It's such a moneyspinner and so widely used that it's hard to counter. But the damage it is doing to young people is undeniable and massive.

There was an Italian study of male adolescents who had erectile dysfunction because their access to porn had desensitised them for normal sex.

As soon as men start being negatively affected, things will change.

Trans activism is making so much headway women have been erased from the 2018 Olympics. If men are driving it - identity politics, porn or prostitution - its doing very well.

OK that looks great...but when there are things like the sex industry..this is a drop in the ocean I think.

Sorry..I don't mean to mansplain..I respect feminism because it's one of the last progressive moral visions of society...but think it and the left generally are fixating on some small things and ignoring the big things.

No offence intended - just my opinion.

Pornography would not exist without misogyny. Misogyny is challenged by reducing or eliminating gender stereotyping.

It's a slow burn.

I suppose the links between gender stereotyping and opportunities (or lack of them) are so obvious and demonstrable to feminists that we find it difficult to understand how others seem unable to join the dots.

Pornography would not exist without misogyny. Misogyny is challenged by reducing or eliminating gender stereotyping.

Yes, by reducing or eliminating the gender stereotyping in pornography - by restricting access to it.

But also I'm actually not sure about that. What do you mean by pornography? Do you mean misogynist depictions of sex; or depictions of sex designed to titillate generally?

Misogyny is undoubtedly a feature of most pornography; but one of the big reasons it exists is that the human animal is a sexual animal and drawn to sexual stimuli. Pornographers know this and hence are very rich.

No amount of Panglossian projections of a world without misogyny will change that.

It's not just men anymore. More and more women are consuming pornography; making their own pornography; having webcam encounters. Pornography would continue to exist without misogyny because people, being people (and adolescents especially) like looking at bums, boobs etc - and, increasingly in our narcissistic internet culture - displaying their own bodies via technology. The political and moral issue of pornography now extends beyond misogyny.

I mean it's not working is it

Well, it's working a fair bit - I have two kids with a partner I'm not married to, I go out to work, I wear trousers, no-one bats an eyelid. My Mum and (de facto) Mother in law couldn't do that..

We're used to these things taking time, we're fairly patient, but now we're starting to get a bit of economic independence you can see the push back, progress is always going to ebb and flow.

More and more women are consuming pornography

Interesting how you can see that social influence works here, but not in other cases huh?

Pornography exists because half the human race thinks it can treat the other half like pieces of meat for their own pleasure.

And yes, capitalism plays its part.

A small percentage of women might do it, but it's largely for the money.

If we had an infrastructure that gave women as much financial independence as it gives men, it would be unnecessary.

If it's for the sexual pleasure of men, then, once again, they are colluding in their own oppression.

There is only ever such a thing as temporary progress. Gains can - and inevitably will - be lost with the blink of an eye.

Gray is right here.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NuWi-TU_sFE

Feminists know all too well how gains can be lost. In a matter of weeks, legislation is going to be considered that will eliminate sex based protection.

There is now no longer a legal definition for the word woman.

There is no longer a legal definition for the word man, either. But interestingly, no-one gives a fuck about that.

John: be interested in your views on the question I asked in post 16.31.30.

Pornography exists because half the human race thinks it can treat the other half like pieces of meat for their own pleasure.

Not simply no. Misogyny is of course a feature of most porn. But what do you mean by porn? Misogynist representations of women designed to titillate? Or representations of sexuality designed to titillate generally?

Porn is no longer purely a matter of the male gaze. More and more women are consuming porn. More and more porn is not industrially produced. When people exchange sexual media of themselves via WhatsApp or sexually interact on a webcam without any money changing hands, is that porn? Is it sexist necessarily? No, but whoever owns WhatsApp or Skype is still making money from its transmission without even seeing it. It is theoretically possible for women to live their sex lives partly online on corporate interfaces without there being misogyny involved. Perhaps unlikely, but the point us that the cultural, political and moral issue of the online sex industry (which isn't even a conventional industry anymore) now extends beyond a simplistic binary of passive female and active male gaze.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/one-in-three-women-watch-porn-at-least-once-a-week-survey-finds-a6702476.html

Sorry for posting twice - I thought it didn't show up the first time.

What a surprise.

Man posts on feminist board, turns topic to porn.

Never happens.

Never.

(it always happens, John. Always).

here can not be a direct link between girls playing with dolls and wearing pink clothes and a disinclination to study computer programming twenty years later?

There is. Direct link. And you know what really rammed it home for me was moving to Sweden where (it's not perfect by any means) kids are NOT gendered like this. Where you send your kid to preschool in hardwearing practical clothing that they can run, play, climb and play out at -20 in. And girls don't wear frocks because you can't play in the snow in a snowsuit with one under and you can't play on a jungle gym in the hot sun in one in the summer

And by Jove, you SEE the difference. You see it from day one in how children are treated and how children grow up and how adults relate to each other. It isn't perfect, but bloody hell its SO different to the U.K.

It does make a difference, I assure you. I've been that little girl, mad about science and told that's for boys. I've lived it. It's true, I assure you.

And this isn't man bashing - men are failed by all this shit too - the boy who is teased for playing with dolls for example.

It IS REAL