I almost want to stand up and applaud this quite outstanding level of whataboutery for the poor menz...

[ShotsFired]

Original article link (depressing, not surprising etc): www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/aug/30/keith-mann-the-inside-man-who-has-exposed-tech-industry-sexism

Comment:
I believe in equal opportunities , not equal outcomes . That said , I smile at the amount of time examining sexism in tech / science / engineering when there is a dearth of consideration given to the catastrophic loss of male teachers , desperately needed to reach out to disillusioned boys . Male teachers are an endangered species in primary schools and it's getting that way in secondary also . This is spreading to other 'caring' professions too as I noticed when visiting prospective universities with my daughter . 90% plus of psychology graduates are now women ..... at s time when men's mental health is in crisis . But hey , who cares?

I expect he's is too busy to write more bunkum because he spends his life campaigning and working to improve the ratios of men in teaching and other caring professions, given how strongly he feels about it. Right? Rght...? Hello?

Obviously don't like the bloke, but underrepresentation of men in teaching, nursing and other occupations is a problem IMO.

male teachers, once they've joined, are overrepresented in senior roles.

A pay specialist I know argued that (state) teachers' and nurses' pay is set too low to recruit and retain male entrants; and that neither government nor trade unions wished to acknowledge this.

Few men doing these roles is a problem for public jobs representing the public/service user community, role modelling, and pay levels becoming lower for jobs mainly done by women.

The comment section of the guardian can be truly depressing, particularly under articles discussing sexism and racism, which if you were to believe most of the comments, are not problems at all. Lots and lots of white men telling women and BAME people that they that they are just whining about nothing.

It's not a 'catastrophic loss' of male teachers, though, is it? It's been a feminised profession - with low pay - for a loooong time. Women in teaching have been saying (jokily, for many years) that all you have to do to get more men into the profession is to raise the pay.

As for the over-representation of men in senior positions ... don't get me started. [anger]

Yes its the money.

I know a couple of women with STEM careers who went into teaching after giving up to have children. And a couple of men who went into teaching physics after getting early retirement, as a second career, because it was something they had always been interested in but the money was better elsewhere. Then there was someone who went in as a consultant to private schools as a sort of retirement hobby.

It's always male teachers in primary schools isn't it? That's the trump card for menz.

Lack of male primary school teachers isn't the problem.

Shit pay for female primary school teachers is the problem.

Men are just sad that they cannot have male dominated primary schools while at the same time saving money. Men, as a class, want male influence on children, but men as individuals aren't willing to sacrifice their highly paid careers to achieve this, or pay more taxes to pay teachers better.
Also, since it is the public sector, they'd be forced to also pay female teachers better, which they also don't want.

I absolutely agree there is an issue with men in teaching and similar professions. In fact I don't know anyone who doesn't agree that we need more balanced teaching staff.

But to jump on this tangentially-related article and start whining about it doesn't do anything to start rectifying the issue, does it. Apart from make him feel better and like he's restored his sense of fairness in the world of course.

The point here, which is what so many men use to beat feminism with, is that just because there may be a problem with lack of men in caring professions, that doesn't mean we should stop focusing on sexism against women. It really gets my goat.

The fact that one issue exists doesn't mean the other doesn't.

A lighter, but equally irritating version is when feminists are attacked for caring about, say, being asked to take notes in meetings simply because we are women and they'll leap on going, "you feminists are so shallow. What about FGM in large parts of Africa. You clearly don't care about those REAL feminist issues."

As for men teaching staff and caring professions etc etc, I'll get MORe concerned about it when leadership positions in these professions reflect the gender split of the ones doing the work. while it seems to be getting better, I'm a bit tired of seeing industries that are filled with women being led by... a man. For example, head teachers in co-educational schools have in the past often been men, even if more women teach there (in my area, this is definitely improving, but I know it's still a problem). Other industries I see this - PR (my industry) and travel. Or let's look at supermarkets? Vast bulk of checkout staff tend to be women... and yet, shock horror, managers are so often men...
And don't even get me started on the local supermarket where we used to live - checkout staff were almost all black women. Manager was, of course, a white man.

Ooh I read this article on Twitter today. In the thread was also this one which was
jezebel.com/homme-de-plume-what-i-learned-sending-my-novel-out-und-1720637627/amp

Anyway....yes that is breathtaking whataboutery. I'm not sure it's even correct. Have noticed a few male NQTs at local schools recently.

I'd say my industry (clinical trials) is 80% female.

Apart from the senior management, which is overwhelmingly male, and white. New exec team from a merger just announced. Almost all male. Entirely white.

I agree that all you have to do to encourage men into teaching is raise the pay. It's been a 'female' role for a very long time - according to my folks, nurse and teacher was really the only career women could have back in the day and in that area of the country.

Interestingly, I now live in Sweden. Plenty of male kindergarten and school teachers here - and lo, the pay and conditions are better.

I don't think there's a problem with fewer men in teaching. What are they realistically going to do better? They don't want to to teach so what do they have to offer that people who do want to teach don't?

A lighter, but equally irritating version is when feminists are attacked for caring about, say, being asked to take notes in meetings simply because we are women and they'll leap on going, "you feminists are so shallow. What about FGM in large parts of Africa. You clearly don't care about those REAL feminist issues."

No I wouldn't say that - what I would query is the regularity that the designated note- taker is the woman in a meeting. Just my personal experience but the note taker is usually the most junior person there and the one who has the least to contribute - whether male or female.

Male classroom teachers have been an endangered species for well over a hundred years. This was being described as a problem in the C19th.

Funny how he's not bothered about the lack of men in retail, or cleaning, or the care industry. All min. wage jobs heavily over represented by women.

Men shouldn't be allowed to become teachers in the first place, imo.

I believe men are severely underrepresented in the domestic cleaning sector, too! How can we have allowed this to happen??

Cross post with KickAssAngel!

Bother, double post. Must stop trying to MN before 7am.

There are far more female teachers than male teachers at my DC's primary school.

But I can't help noticing that 100% of the male teachers in the school are in senior leadership roles (including the head teacher). Similar story in a couple of other local schools I'm familiar with. Men being a small proportion of the overall teaching staff, but dominating the leadership positions.
It does make it a bit harder for me to take complaints of sexism against men in teaching seriously, when I see the men who do choose teaching succeeding so well at climbing the teaching career ladder.

Plus it's a completely different issue to women being underrepresented in tech industries.

Men might be underrepresented in teaching but male headteachers are paid more than female headteachers.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/exclusive-disturbing-gender-pay-gap-headteacher-salaries%3famp

BloodyBridget "I believe men are severely underrepresented in the domestic cleaning sector, too! How can we have allowed this to happen??"

That's made me laugh.

Which is good because this thread explores things that make me seethe.

Thank you.

lass - your personal experience might be that the most junior person, male or female, takes notes. But it's a fairly well known and fact that most women in office environments have, at some point, being asked to take notes even though there is a more junior man. Quite often, this is because it is assumed that as the women she is the most junior.